The Conversation with Susan and Whittney
The Conversation with Susan and Whittney
A Court of Thorns and Roses Book Club with Devon Hamilton
Susan and Whittney discuss A Court of Thorns and Roses by Sarah J. Maas in this book club episode featuring special guest Devon Hamilton.
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Hello and welcome to the conversation with Susan and Whitney, the podcast where two friends from college discuss shared interests, insights, and how we're navigating our lives today. This is an ongoing conversation about how we're surviving and thriving. We discuss the important and the trivial and other fun topics in between. I'm Susan Field, a writer and teacher in Philadelphia, and I'm Whittney Gould, a writer and marketing director in New Hampshire.
Susan:Whittney, you're the kind of friend who I can count on to teach me new pop culture terms such as Bravo, liberty, and introduce me to trending books such as A Court of Thorns and Roses. Today's topic of conversation.
Whittney:Susan. You are the kind of friend who encourages me to pursue the things that will help make my life easier. you've been encouraging me to look into hiring some help around the house and to actually sign up for TSA pre-check, which we talked about on our last episode, and I'm happy to report on that second item on TSA Pre-Check. I actually have completed that one since the last time we talked, so thanks for the extra encouragement.
Susan:That's awesome, Whittney. Great job. On today's show, we are excited to be joined once again by my sister Devon Hamilton for our third annual book club discussion. Today we will be discussing book one of the acclaimed romantasy series, A Court of Thorns and Roses, also known as ACOTAR by Sarah J Maas. Welcome, Devon.
Devon:Hi. Thanks for having me again. I always look forward to talking to you ladies about the books and going in deep.
Susan:Yeah, we're happy to have you as always. So, Whittney, you were the one that picked this book. I was hoping you could tell us how did this book come upon your radar, and why are we choosing it right now?
Whittney:That's a great question, Suze. So, especially because this book has been on my radar for many years. it came out in I believe 2015 and I've had the ebook for a couple years now, but it was just kind of firmly back on my TBR. I didn't really have an impetus to start it yet. and then Last summer, whenever I was traveling for work, my colleague's girlfriend was raving about the book. She was reading them and she just couldn't stop talking about them or reading them. She was describing them like nothing she's ever read before. And she, you know, she just almost even couldn't explain to me the appeal. Right. And then my cousin Ashley, this fall started reading the series and she said, I need you to start reading the series because I need someone to talk to about this series. And so that's kind of why I started reading the book. And then when we were talking about doing our book club with Devon, this time we were talking about how we wanted something completely different. So this one is, different than what we've done in the past, so I thought it might be
Susan:Yeah, absolutely. Whittney. This is definitely something that wasn't on my radar and I don't usually read this type of book, so I was definitely open to your suggestion of trying this series, trying something new. So today we're going to discuss all the things. here's the description from the Amazon page for a court of thorns and roses. When 19-year-old Feyre kills a wolf in the woods, a beast like creature arrives to demand retribution for it dragged to a treacherous magical land she only knows from legends. Feyre discovers that her captor is not an animal, but Tamlin, one of the world's most lethal and immortal fairies who once ruled the world.
Whittney:As she dwells on his estate, her feelings for Tamlin transform from icy hostility into fiery passion that burns through every lie and warning she's been told about the beautiful, dangerous world of the Faye, but an ancient wicked shadow over the fairy lands is growing and Feyre must find a way to stop it or doom Tamlin and his world forever.
Susan:Mass is also known for her other fantasy series, throne of Glass and Crescent City. As of 2022, she has sold over 12 million copies of her books, and her works have been translated into 37 languages.
Whittney:Readers of ACOTAR, which is what we call this series, it's the acronym, will notice some familiar themes and folklore. In a 2014 USA Today interview, Maas shared her inspirations for writing the novel. She said, A Court of Thorns and Roses was actually inspired by three of my all-time favorite fairy slash folktales, Beauty and the Beast; East of the Sun, West of the Moon; and Tamlin. I got the kernel of inspiration by wondering what if Beauty was a huntress? And then promptly asked myself, what if the Beast was a shape-shifting, very sexy fairy Lord. From there, the characters and fairy realm of Prythian just kind of exploded.
Susan:Tamlin is a character in a legendary Scottish border ballad. The story revolves around the rescue of Tamlin by his true love from the queen of the fairies.
Whittney:The novel is currently being developed as a series for Hulu.
Susan:Okay. So all that background information, which I tHought was really interesting to talk about her inspirations and especially the character of Tam Lynn in the Scottish border Ballad. I found that fascinating and I thought it added some good context to the novel, but let's just get into it. What did you both think of the book? Did this book live up to the hype?
Devon:I completely understand the popularity of the series. I've seen, Sarah j Maas's work all over the place. She's taken over Barnes and Noble. I think that this series is especially geared toward readers who are using this as a gateway, because I think it's accessible to those who are just getting started. into fantasy, romantic genre, I understand that Maas was paying homage to a lot of her favorite fairytales and stories, but it just felt too recycled. The heroine here is very skilled, huntress and she's skilled in weaponry and being in the woods and survival and this trope, it just took me straight back to the Hunger Games. I was picturing Catis in my mind and I didn't find anything particularly fresh or unique in her story. So for me it was a bit of a disappointment.
Whittney:gonna go opposite of Dev. I think maybe I liked that it felt familiar in those ways. also picked up Katniss from Feyre, Katniss and Belle and all of these characters that were familiar to me, and I think that plays on the accessibility piece. I do think that may have been intentional to get people excited and, and to kind of dip their toe in because there is a lot of complex world building in fantasy and this was the easy access point I think. but for me, I didn't focus, I guess, so much on the. Recycled content, so to speak, as the layers of meaning and themes that I picked up on throughout. So I really liked that and I liked that. I'll talk about this a little bit later, but I liked that the, the characters were all very deeply flawed. I thought that that makes for more interesting plots and storylines, because even the people that you think are, super noble ended up not being su. What'd you think?
Susan:So I agree with things that both of you said. I think I agree with what Devon was saying, where I understand how it was really, a gateway book and it, like you were saying, Whittney, and is very accessible because of the familiarity. And I feel like I did enjoy many elements of it, but I didn't consistently enjoy those elements across the book. Like, it hit a point where I really liked the first half and then the second half was really difficult for me. so I think there was many enjoyable elements, but it didn't live up to the hype. It's one of those books where in the moment I, I was, I was enjoying listening to it, but I've kind of forgotten about it since. So it didn't have a lasting effect for me.
Whittney:That's so interesting'cause I can't stop thinking about things like months later. And I have only read book one.
Devon:Whittney and Susan, what is your previous experience with, fantasy novels, if any?
Whittney:I read them, I wouldn't say as regularly anymore as I used to, but I used to read, not super deep fantasy on the lines of some of the stuff you've read. I used to read a lot of young adult fantasy and whenever I did line editing, I often had to line edit fantasy books. Fairy lore for example, wasn't a surprise for me. Susan, I'm anxious to hear what you thought about the second half of the book because I'm wondering if much of it is that you didn't have a background in fairy lore and the darker side of fairy lore and if that played a role into this, because it it wasn't surprising to me.'cause I expected that side of it, I guess, if that
Susan:No, that does make sense. I really don't have much of a background in fantasy. I'm familiar with some of the folklore and things like that, but I. No, it's not really a genre that I'm interested in, which is why I was open to reading it for this book discussion as something new, something to open up my mind. So no, I did not have a background in the dark side of the fairy world. But for me it was less about the plot, it was less about that. It was more about the way that it was written. I just felt like the writing wasn't engaging enough to make me interested.
Devon:I was curious because I know we all, as kids growing up in the late eighties, nineties, we are all very well versed in Disney fairytale lore and the Disney Fairytale world, and I think that I, see that as an inspiration also for this book. I know that we all have at least that common base of a love for beauty and the beast. I drew off of my love for that to fuel me through the writing and the book that I wasn't really a huge fan of. So that might not necessarily be a strong point for Maas in that I was using other books to try to motivate me to keep reading her actual material. But that's just where I was coming from.
Susan:I do wanna add that I am familiar with dark fairytales in terms of Hans Christian Anderson, the creator of Dark Fairytales. I mean, if you've read the original Little Mermaid story, for example, so, I mean, I am familiar with how fairytales can be dark, but it was more the writing for me. Like I feel like if a book is really powerful, that you should be able to get into it even if you don't have the right background,
Whittney:think it's also, dependent on what you're hoping the writing will do. And Susie, I know you, I know you love much more poetic, lyrical language, you love a beautifully written
Susan:Hmm. Yeah.
Whittney:I think that potentially this book, that's not the point of her sentences,
Susan:Correct.
Whittney:if that
Susan:Yeah, Is true. That is true. This kind of reminds me, Whittney, in our last episode I was talking about, you know who books are for, and I didn't think English majors would like certain fluffy books. And you pointed out that it's not necessarily about that. It's about what is your goal for reading, what type of reader are you, what are you looking to get out of it? And I feel like that's sort of ringing true in what you're saying right now, that maybe it's more about what are you hoping for it rather than maybe what it is at face value.
Devon:Although for me, if an author is setting out to write an epic fantasy fairytale based novel, I feel like one of her goals in her writing would be to create a transportive experience and a lyrical experience to suck a reader into a fairytale esque world. I went into it assuming that it was going to have that type of language. And so when it didn't, that was, a disappointment for me.
Susan:I looked in my phone because whenever I read and I find a really lyrical, beautiful sentence, I write it down in my phone notes and I looked, I actually did have two quotes from the book written down, so it's not like every sentence wasn't worth repeating. There was a few descriptions that I really liked. I guess maybe consistently as a whole, it wasn't as beautiful as I wanted it to be. Sometimes the dialogue disrupted it. Like she would have written a really nice scene and I was really into it, and then all of a sudden, Feyre would be like, oh shit, or something like that. And I'm like, really? There's this beautiful spell, and all of a sudden she says shit. I just wished it didn't even seem maybe appropriate for the time period. There should have been maybe another phrase that was said, it almost seemed like she was speaking modern day where, but we were being painted into this fairytale. The tone and the language and the dialogue is what, ripped me out of any spell that she had cast.
Devon:I had that same experience. I would be getting into a moment and she would pull me out of it with a turn of phrase or a choice of words from favor, the tone just seemed too inconsistent some of her language went against what it appeared she was trying to achieve as a writer.
Susan:And I also felt like, oh shit, I keep using that same phrase, there could have been something that would've been more impactful and more powerful, something that had more substance than that. Masks could have done better with creating more of a substantial turn of phrase.
Whittney:So I just had to look up the time period because I didn't realize that it was supposed to be set in a historical time period. I just was assuming it was like hunger games, kind of dystopian esque, it didn't affect my reading of the book, but it looks like people are assuming 17 to 18 hundreds because of the way the humans dress and the
Devon:Lack technology and things like that.
Susan:Okay. Like when she went, was it the human world? I honestly, I can't remember anything specific at the moment, but just um, when she went back to see her family, I think, like you were saying, talking about their clothing or the technology or where they were living or their town, that made me believe that it took place in an older time period.
Whittney:Yeah. That was interesting. Susan, I need to know the two quotes that you pulled
Susan:Oh, okay. Well I have to pull them up. there, and, you know,, maybe there was more down the line, but I, I stopped having the motivation to write them down. But one of the quotes I had was, I stroked his limp hair. Its texture like liquid night. And then another one I had was I tipped my head back and howled my laughter, like sunshine shattering, age hardened ice. I like when images are fresh. I thought that was fresh, some, a fresh comparison. So I really enjoyed that, but I didn't find that a lot of her other language felt new to me. Which maybe leads into your next question, Whittney.
Whittney:So we've kind of already talked about the story having a lot of recycled content, did the story have any distinguishing factors that made it feel fresh and unique, or did it all feel too recycled for both of you?
Devon:My first major leap into the romantic genre, was Shield's Legacy. The original series was a trilogy, and then there was a second trilogy and actually a third trilogy. It's pretty much for those who have read it, the gold standard of romantic writing. Her writing is so lush and so complex, and she creates this unbelievably complicated and rich, mythology around her entire world. I feel that every other book that I've picked up since then, I've been searching for that same feeling, that same rush. I feel bad in a way for other fantasy writers because it's like trying to compare the skill and mastery of a player in the NBA to someone who's just learning the game as a high school basketball player. There's a completely different experience watching an amateur sport as opposed to a professional game. And after reading Jacqueline Carey's series, I felt like I just started out at like the highest Olympic gold level. And anything else just doesn't compare to that. I truly believe that Maas, not only read, but loved jacqueline Carey's series because I see many, many connections in it between her world building and ideas of the night court and these shades of darkness and light and this idea of sexuality as love, but also a point of possible manipulation. And all of these things, I mean, these aren't new ideas, but several specific details that Maas used, I found straight from the pages of Jacqueline Carey. So having those two in my mind as comparative books, it was just, a losing game all around for maas.
Susan:Devon and I were texting a little bit leading up to this, and she said that in Shield's legacy, the main character's name was Fedra, which is so similar to Feyre. Um, coincidence, I don't know. Devon said to me, about the night court, there was a literally one scene that was almost exactly the same, that what had happened in the second half of a Qatar.
Devon:The, idea of a masquerade is a huge theme throughout the Jacqueline Carey series. And so every time the idea of the masks and these balls and this night court and this darkness it all hearkened back. And I truly felt like Maas was writing it as a homage to Carrie and her love for those books. As I said before, that's not confirmed. I haven't read that. But from the very searing similarities, I feel like there's no way that she hasn't read that other material.
Whittney:It is interesting and I wonder now if fans of this series will find the Jacqueline Carey books and then get really into them as a result.
Devon:Who do you believe this series, was written for? Is it written for an adult audience or is it more young adult? In terms of the sexuality and the sensuality, it seemed very tame, especially compared to the very, very adult content of Jacqueline Carey. I'm not recommending for a high schooler or a young adult who's loving and devouring thorns of roses to immediately jump over to, carrie's material, which is very explicit and very adult. So I don't want those two to be confused. This is not for the same audience in my mind, but I wondered what Maas's audience was in particular, because I wasn't quite sure.
Susan:I was not sure either. In fact, I keep finding conflicting answers to that. A couple of the reviews I read said it is absolutely not for young adults. It's very inappropriate. I read a whole list of trigger warnings, but then other times I've seen that it could be for young adults, but I wouldn't want a young adult that I knew reading this. But it's interesting because I feel like it's written as if it was for a young adult. And I was talking about it not being sophisticated enough. I feel like it is for a young adult reader, but it's inappropriate for them at the same time, in my opinion.
Whittney:So I have what I think is the right answer and I, I will Google to see if this is what other people think too. But, there's a genre that is between young adult and adult called New Adult. And as Feyre is 19 in this book, I think it fits very nicely into this new adult genre where it is able to explore some more adult level themes, but the character is still kind of in this, the cusp of being an adult and there are things that are gonna be more complicated than maybe a teenage protagonist would encounter. I'm not really sure what the new adult, age range for protagonist is officially, but I think when I've seen in the past, it's anywhere between 18 and 25. a protagonist fits those age ranges, it can neatly fall within this category. I think new adult was created a lot of times for women's fiction or and romance novels. That's the only time in the past I've seen that genre referenced as something between young adult and adult. And I think it's because there is, that kind of middle ground where it's a little more, adult but not as, overly adult.
Susan:So I haven't been into a Barnes and Noble in a while. Devon, you referenced that this series has taken over Barnes and
Devon:got an entire shelf, she's got an entire section.
Susan:I'm wondering what it's marketed as at Barnes and Noble.'cause like I said, I've even looked on Amazon and I couldn't find a definitive answer of who this is being marketed to. I'm just curious how in stores they are marketing this.
Whittney:is so funny. I was literally just in Barnes and Noble, last Tuesday, and, don't remember, and I saw the whole section, like it's all of her series, like they have like a little, almost like a
Devon:Exactly. Was this your first, foray into Sarah's work or Have any of you ready any of her previous work?
Whittney:was my first one.
Susan:Me too. Me too. But now that I know her name's pronounced Maas, it's interesting that she has a shrine to her, sort of like this religious following for Sarah Maas.
Devon:This is actually not my first foray into her writing. I had another experience similar to you, Whittney, with your cousin I had a good friend who was reading Sarah Maas's work, I think they're the Throne of Glass series and was like, oh, I need you to read it. I need to, to talk to someone about it. I absolutely devoured the series. I love it. So I went and started reading a prequel to the Throne of Glass series, and, the writing had many of the same pitfalls that experienced with this novel, so I didn't actually complete that work. So that was my first sort of, entry into Sarah Maas. And then I tried this one and then went the long haul and read the full novel. But I had similar qualms with both.
Susan:So I was going to ask what worked for you both or it didn't work for you. It sounds like we've already covered a lot of that ground. but Devon, I do know that you had mentioned to me offline about there being a lack of emotional connection to Feyre. Would you go into that a little bit?
Devon:pH just wasn't a intriguing. Heroin for me. I felt like I knew what Maas was trying to do. She wanted to show someone who was fighting for her family and had made this deathbed promise to her mother. And despite all odds, she had trained herself into hunting for the family. And she was the only sister that was able to step up and Maas was giving us all the ingredients to, root for this character and really care. But I just didn't find any depth or any reason to latch on as opposed to the Hunger Game series with Kane, that character and her story, despite other weaknesses of the overall works, it came back to her and you rooting for her. And I just didn't seem to have that same connection with Feyre. And I'm not exactly sure why I just didn't ever get invested in her character.
Susan:I felt similarly. We don't know much about her. I think there just wasn't that much of a backstory that was built, I guess for me that's, that was the issue. But, what did work for me? I listened to the audio as I usually do. I thought the audio was very well done. It was by a narrator named Jennifer Aada, I believe. It took me a little bit to get used to her voice. She had kind of a distinct way of speaking, but eventually I really loved her presentation, and I think that was one of the things that had me wanting to continue to read because I really enjoyed her presentation of the story. But one thing that I thought would've been nice in my opinion, I would've liked if the writing or the narration had multiple point of views. Like for me, it would've been really interesting if there was a chapter that then talked about Tamlin side of things, or solution side, or even Amaranthus side. Maybe I'm just used to now listening to books that have multiple points of views, like Emily Henry Books, for example, will alternate chapters. I just finished a really great book called Before I Let Go by Kennedy Ryan, and there was multiple points of use, between a husband and a wife, and I really enjoyed that. So I thought that could have worked really well for a story like this and to adding a little more depth into elevating the experience. And something else that I was thinking, and maybe the two of you if you read hard copy, could comment on this. I heard that there is a map in the hard copy book, in the front pages. That would've been helpful to me as an audio listener because I couldn't really visualize Ian or where things were taking place. So I think a map would've been helpful for me or a list of characters. So those of you that had that supplementary material, was that helpful? Did you use that?
Devon:I mean, I always enjoy a good map
Susan:Yes, quote Devon. I always enjoy a good map.
Devon:lots of fantasy books have, a little bit of a visual companion, I always like just to see it but I don't think it added for me in any way to the world of the book
Whittney:So I think because I read it in the ebook and it was like I would've had to flip the whole way back to the beginning, I didn't really reference it much. I also am visual like you, but I didn't, I didn't think I lost anything from not referencing it. So I think, you covered that. I like the deeply flawed characters. one of the things that I liked that, I would like to ask, what everybody else thinks about it is I really did like the layers of foreshadowing the symbolism, the themes, and the world building and kind of how all that came together. I feel like as a Swiftie, Sarah J Maas has like. Easter, egged Easter, this entire book. The more I think about things, the more I go back and I'm like, what did she say about that? And then I uncover more things and I go down more rabbit holes. So me just, let me just give you an example that kept percolating in my brain, but I couldn't figure out why. And then I finally just looked up some things, to see if it was just me and it is actually apparently foreshadowing for the future. the dresser that Feyre paints in the hovel, as Tamlin called it, that she and her family inhabited. There's a quote in chapter two. She said, I slung off my outer clothes onto the sagging dresser, frowning at the violets and roses. I'd painted around the knobs of Elaine's dresser, the crackling flames I'd painted around Nesta and the night sky whirls of yellow stars standing in for white around mine. I thought that was weird at the time because she's painting all these random symbols for her sisters, I'm like, this is interesting that she's giving them all symbols, especially, you that, that seems very distinct, right? They have each have distinct things. later in the book, Elaine is gardening right? Later in the book, roses come up in the spring court. So what, I don't know what's happening, but I'm gonna guess that Elaine has some sort of, interaction with the Spring Court in later in the series because Roses are a spring court, symbol. I have no idea what the flames for Nesta mean, but she is a little bit fiery. So I don't know if that's, that's something there, but the night sky, I can't stop thinking about the night sky thing because of how, what happened at the end of the book. Right? With Rah and Rhys, there is some sort of night court situation that is being foreshadowed here.
Susan:Uh, that's funny'cause I can't even remember what happened at the end of the book. I think I texted Devon. I was like, what happened? I literally can't even, I couldn't even remember the end. I read something online and I was like, wait, did that happen in this book? Or is that in a future book? The ending to me, I don't remember a single thing about it. The end of the book fizzled out so much for me that I literally don't remember what happened after the Amarantha stuff, except that she's now a fairy. I think I wasn't even sure if that happened. I had to have Devon confirm. For me, it's like, um, I don't know, Whittney, I don't, it's so interesting that you latched onto this stuff.'cause like none of that stuff, it's like evaporated completely out of my mind.
Whittney:Okay, so why do you think the book was named A Court of
Susan:I don't know.
Devon:I think it sounds really great.
Susan:Honestly, I just didn't think that deeply about it. I don't know. It was, no, I, I do just wanna say that it's not, I did not dislike this book while I was listening to it. I feel like I was into it. It wasn't like I had to force myself. I was enjoying it in the moment. I just feel like I wasn't really latching onto what was happening and when it was over, it was just over for me. But I really appreciate you bringing up all that symbolism. I think that's really interesting.
Whittney:Yeah, I mean, again, I could go down several rabbit holes, but like the spring court alone. Okay. Their, their weather is eternally spring. It's like nice, but it's not too nice, you know, it's like better than bleak winter, but never really progresses. They're all wearing masks. It's the, you the original sign of deception right. When she gets there. They all have secrets and they're not sharing information with her and it's visibly on their faces the whole time. Like visibly, they're lying to you on their faces, right? the roses, obviously Tamlin says they represent his parents love, but that's the stereotypical flower of love. It's generic, you know? So if that's how he's viewing love, like what is his, version of love, what is his definition of love, right? There are also thorns on roses. There are all these references to thorns. And, whenever I went back to find the quote about Pharaoh, calling herself someone with thorns, because she, I remembered her saying something about like, she wasn't good enough for Tamlin'cause she's so covered in thorns or whatever. She says, who wants someone? Someone so covered in thorns and then she describes herself as thorny, prickly, sour, contrary, but is she or is he? Right. So like,, who has thorns? Who really has thorns? Is it the sparkly, gorgeous, fae of the Spring Court? Or is it Feyre? Right? thought that was interesting, the play of that. And I think that that's probably where the title comes from. You Obviously Roses are important to the Spring Court, roses, thorns, which one is which, et cetera. also thought that there was an interesting, symbol of doorways and what people do to doorways. I'll give you the example of whenever Tamlin came to collect Pharaoh. He crashed through the doorway when as we look back, he did not need to do that. He could have entered their house without coming through the door. He could have, uh,, opened the door. He could have knocked at the door, right? But he like. Just destroys the door. she gets to what feels like the super safe place of tamela's estate, one of her first instincts is to lock her door, right? And protect her, her herself within that safe fish place, right? So there are a lot of like door things, you doorways under the mountain and, and what those are. And, and so that there's a lot of doorway, imagery that is still like, spinning in my brain. I don't know that, that's just like the surface
Susan:That's Very astute of you to pick up on that as you were reading to me. I don't know. I, I didn't strike me. However, sometimes, a book like this might constitute a reread. I don't think I will reread it, but it's like one of those things where once you have maybe some of the symbolism. On the radar for you. If I read it again, I would be picking up on a lot of these different things. Maybe this is the type of book that, for me, I needed a reading guide with it to stop and think about what I had just read, to kind of take it, intellectualize it a little bit more. that could have helped because I feel like maybe I was just getting a little bit lost and I wasn't really thinking about it in an intellectual way.
Whittney:Again, I mean, it depends on what you want from your, your reading, right? I would like to escape, and as a swifty, I love good Easter eggs,
Susan:No, I'm not
Whittney:maybe I'm looking for them where you, you
Susan:Absolutely. No. And I'm not saying that these things aren't there. I'm not trying to, take away any credibility from what you're saying. I just didn't specifically notice those things. But that is really fascinating that that's the way that you took it. I think that's, that's really interesting, this whole conversation as a commentary on how. we have one text and three people are taking it in completely different ways. So, that's the beauty of reading and interpretation and, creates for good discussion. One thing I was thinking that we haven't discussed so far was the character of Lucian. I really liked Lucian. I, again, I don't know if I have anything intellectual to say about him, but I really liked his dynamic with Feyre and I was just curious, what were your thoughts on that character and maybe what he symbolized or who he represented. Devon, you and I were speaking about because he had the red hair he was more illuminated. We thought he was kind of like the Lumiere character from Eating the Beast.
Devon:I was trying to make some connections with beating the Beast and who could be who.. And in this book, Lucian came across as much more interesting than Tamlin. You know, that best friend that is not readily gonna like you. You sort of have to earn your way in, earn his trust, earn his respect. He's unsure of favorite at the beginning, and he is flawed and he doesn't necessarily wanna save this human who's here suddenly in his life. The interplay between Pharaoh and Lucian was entertaining. I enjoyed that portion of it. And that happens a lot of times in books. I feel like the main character can be a little bit, uninspiring, but some of those side characters are what give it life. And so I found that to be the case with Lucian.
Whittney:I also liked Lucian far better than Tamlin. I'll just throw that out there. I think for me, one of the reasons he was more interesting, despite his flaws to me, is that he felt more genuine. His responses and emotional responses to certain scenarios felt more believable to me because they felt more like normal, like a human would feel that way, you know? Or, that he was human, but you know what I'm saying. and in that way I think he felt more trustworthy throughout the book because, you know, Tamlin was just so reserved and so almost like he was constantly superior and he was holding in his emotions and he was being kind and gracious as a host, and in the end, you he was much more deceptive I thought.
Susan:As I was reading these characters, I was picturing Tamlin exactly as the Beast in Beauty and the Beast, obviously, or Prince Adam, whatever you wanna think about him. It's the same way he was in the movie. He was very prickly, very reserved. He had this mask, so to speak, you know, his disguise or, you know what I'm saying? his countenance was really hiding who he really was, and then Lucian, I was picturing him a little bit like the Lumiere, like with the sarcastic comments, kind of the sidekick to the beast. But, while we were talking, it just made me think back to, since I was picturing Tamlin so much as the beast for me, the title A Court of Thorns and Roses. I was picturing the rose from Beauty and the Beast, the symbolic rose that's losing leaves and obviously there's some thorns on that Rose. It was, for me, it was just the same image from Beauty and the Beast of what the rose and the Thorn represented in that case. so I think just to answer the question from earlier, that's really what I was picturing it to be, that symbol of the Beauty and the Beast story that it represented, but.
Devon:Flowers in general have a finite lifespan. And this idea of the spell They don't have much time. They don't necessarily have the freedom to give Feyre all the details. So even though they're intentionally closed lip to begin with because they don't trust her, even when they do gain her trust part of their, sentence, with the masks and everything is they can't give explicit detail about their situation. So what you see on the outside is not necessarily what's going on. You don't have all the details, and that this flower is fading and there's some urgency to it. That was definitely all wrapped up in the text.
Susan:Yes. And speaking of Tamlin and Feyre, I was curious what the two of you thought about their romance. Um, you know, we talked about how we liked the dynamic between Lucian and Feyre and their banter a bit, and it seemed more genuine perhaps. But what did you think about Tamlin and Feyre? Was it too predictable? Did you think it was spicy? Do we wanna see more? What'd you think?
Whittney:have very distinctive thoughts on this. Dev, why don't you go first?
Devon:It took me a while to get into this book, and once I finally did, I was beginning to settle into the Spring Court and Tamlin and Feyre and the sexual tension that was building between them. Tamlin taking Feyre around and showing his part of the fairy realm, which was gorgeous, and they're having this magical experience. And Maas was finally winning me over. And then they have their one night of passion. And then literally, at the break of Dawn, Tamlin tells Feyre that she's leaving and he's sending her back to the human world. It was a huge break. I was beginning to become invested and the second that their love was consummated, so to speak, she was immediately pulled out of it. But then suddenly that's supposed to be her drive to go back into the world and this momentous change for her, but it was just so fast and so abruptly pulled apart, just as soon as things were beginning to develop that was a stumbling block for me And obviously Maas did that on purpose. That was how she wanted to set up the book and create this tension between them. But the world building was shattered and the relationship between them was shattered too quickly for it to hold up for what comes in the second half of the novel.
Whittney:Yeah, is not endgame love for sure. that was never believable for me at all through this. I was trying to figure out how I would describe their love story. I think it's kind of like, first like serious relationship you have, like a teenager and you know what that feels like. Where at the time you think that the, it's this like fantastic thing, but it's because you don't know like, soulmate love yet. And so I think maybe they both think that this is good, but it's not good. You know, this is not a good love story. It's shallow and hollow to me in a way. felt more interesting sparks and vibes, whenever she had interactions with Rhys. And think that that's probably intentional and that there's gonna be like sort of love triangle in the next book. But I, I don't know. I just, I think that the reason she survived the Under the Mountain stuff had more to do with who she is as a person and as a survivor of trauma and you bleak circumstances than it did as a result of how much she and Tamlin love each other, if that makes sense. think maybe she thinks she loves him because her love, like the family that she grew up in and the love that they show her. His love is way more than that. Like way bigger than that, but it's, she just, she doesn't know. She doesn't know yet what, what it's supposed to be, if that makes sense. I don't know
Susan:It does make sense. I felt. And like I agree with what Devon said too. It felt a little anti-climatic like I was into the love story. It just ended too soon. You're right. It didn't build a strong enough foundation that's sustainable. And so I also agree with what you were saying, Whittney, is it's, maybe it's not end game love as you called it.
Devon:What did you think of the second half as opposed to the first half?
Whittney:I wasn't surprised because I was like, well it's gotta have a turn. Things are too quiet, basically. and Again, I knew the darker side of the fairy stuff was being hinted at with Amarantha and Rhys, but hadn't come to play into play yet. But it felt very Hunger Games esque, the level of, trials and tribulations and then also like the ultimate puzzle being kind of easy to solve. Right.
Devon:I solved it within three seconds
Whittney:I wondered if it was so easy to solve so that we would keep reading through the rest of it because it was kind of twisty and dark and weird, to get from original puzzle to end of the book. Although again, I was kind of disappointed where the book ended because I thought there were a lot of interesting Rhys things that happened and then we just end and we're happy with Tamlin again. And I don't think we're happy with Tamlin Why would we be happy with Tamlin after this? Rhys Reese setup is pretty clear that he's going to be a driving force for what I would imagine would be the rest of the series. I mean, there was so much attention put on his character and the tension and the complexities between what was going on with he and, Feyre that there's no doubt in my mind that this is not the end of their story or his character. She's definitely setting it all up for a big exploration yeah. But again, I was like calm, even, it was like bleak. I've been kidnapped by someone. I'm taken to this castle, like whatever. And then it got teeth. It got teeth. In a weird way.
Devon:it got teeth for sure. Did you, as someone who loves escapism, what part of escapism do you enjoy? I mean, it gets really, really dark. Does that continue to act as an escape for you as a reader, or does that get more challenging or what, what are your thoughts on that?
Whittney:I think the, the darkness does get challenging at at times and I probably as a reader when I'm reading it, think I don't want it to get this dark, but I almost feel like every time the payoff of like. Coming out of the darkness is worth it, if that makes sense. Um, and this one again, I have the wrapped up happy ending. I didn't think was as happy as everyone was pretending it was. All the characters in the, in the book were pretending it was like, but again, it's book one of a, a series,
Devon:Yeah.
Whittney:I have to keep that in mind
Devon:I mean, on the surface I think it was a happy ending, but clearly also as the reader, we know, like some very serious, character shattering things happened at the end and the choices that Feyre had to make. So they're setting up that she's now a different character, literally a different creature completely than what she was when she first started. The second half for me was such a drudgery to get through,, but I felt just a little bit like I was watching a Scooby-Doo episode where the bad guy captures Scooby-Doo and his crew. And instead of just doing away with them in the first moment that they can, they talk about their problems or they tell them how they pulled off the crime. And this character who has so much power, Amarantha? What's the point of her playing with this human when she could easily just do away with her and have no threat at all? And obviously there would be no novel. So there needs to be something. It's like when in superhero movies, when a human's battling Superman, there is never really a true competition between the two. I felt like I was just being fed something that wasn't challenging me intellectually in any way, or giving me something to really invest into this true battle between them There's not really a battle, but she makes it one because she doesn't kill Feyre immediately.
Whittney:So one thing that I made a note that I was going to talk about today, were the levels of power dynamics throughout the book. And I think that for me, my interpretation of that had nothing to do with whether or not she could, it was knowing she could and not doing it, like not ending her. So it was like power move. Actually there was only one, quote that I had highlighted in the entire book and only quote I highlighted was,"you don't hold onto power by being everyone's friend." Lucian says it. Which is interesting, right? about, quarter of the way through the book. But I think that that has everything to do with some of these other plot lines in the book.
Devon:For sure, the power disparities, the power dynamics was a big theme. I just felt like some of that wasn't developed in the way that was truly believable when Maas is constantly talking about the infinite powers of the fairies and their tremendous abilities and then she still is trying to create a level playing field almost between Feyre and the the fairies and the fae world. There just seemed to be some discrepancies in what that power really was
Susan:I just didn't think I thought deep enough about it to notice any of these things. I feel like, I don't know, I was taking it in very one note. It's interesting because I wouldn't say that I'm a reader who takes everything so simply, but I just for some reason didn't, maybe, as Devon said, I just wasn't invested enough to look at it in a multifaceted, multilayered way. So I was just taking it in very face value. So I don't have much to add with that, but very, very fascinating insights.
Whittney:So if you think about which human was in the competition, me that kind of maybe played a little bit of a role. Again, maybe not as as believable as you're hoping, Dev, but if say Elain had been the human that was in the competition, she's not set up for that. She's not had to work hard to support her family you way that Feyre has. And so I think that the only human we've met in this entire story who could have survived the under the mountain situation
Devon:mm-Hmm.
Whittney:Feyre. And so I don't know if that's the, if that's enough of a difference, but don't know if Amarantha was just discounting Feyre as a human cause she was comparing her to other humans.
Devon:I think that's what the setup was, that she was, not giving her the credit, was discounting her abilities. And then Feyre was going to show her what humans are really made of. I think that was clearly the point, but that whole second half of the book really just killed it for me because I like escapism but the darkness and the slog of the battles that she had to do and these puzzles and the whole thing, it wasn't enjoyable for me and the payoff wasn't there.'cause I absolutely agree. I've read novels that have gone super dark and it's been challenging me for to push through it. But then when I did the payoff was worth it in the end. But I didn't feel that way for this novel.
Whittney:Yeah, I mean, honestly, it's one of the things that I haven't liked about some of the fairy books that I've read in the past, which have all been young adult ones. Because there's always this element of torture, like the fairies torture the humans. But for some reason this one wasn't as bad for me as other ones I've read with similar scenarios.
Susan:Well I think that about sums it up. So overall, how would both of you rate the A Court of Thorns and Roses out of five stars, five being the highest? I'm using our Good Reads rating scale.
Whittney:All right. Well, I feel like I should start because it's gonna go downhill from my rating, I think. so on Good reads, I gave it a five, but it's probably really a 4.75 for me, total. But it's generally because of the layers of deeper things that I picked up on that are going on or that I'm interpreting. Maybe they're not actually going on, Easter eggs, things like that, the flawed characters,'cause I just, you know, can't wait to see flawed characters, tension, who what's gonna happen down the road in this series, but I assume that that's the highest rating this book will see on this podcast. So.
Susan:Do you wanna go next?
Devon:I was feeling very generous the day that I rated it on good Reads, and I gave it a three, I feel like, more closer probably to a two and a half when I really started to think about it. I think it's a good gateway for readers to get into fantasy. I see what Maas was trying to do, and I appreciate her efforts. Do I think it could have been a lot stronger? Yes. Will I continue to read? No, but I would love to hear your recaps as opposed to me going through and continuing to read the series.
Susan:Right. I, I rank, rank it similarly to Devon. I gave it a three on good reads. Maybe it's more like a 2.75. So here's the thing. I was enjoying it as I was listening to it, but I think I just wasn't taking it in as deeply as say you were Whittney. So for me, like without having that deeper connection, it was hard to leave the lasting impression. Whereas potentially if I would read it again or, you know, now that I have spent a little more time discussing symbols and things, I might take it into a deeper way. I might connect with it more. I do think it's a good gateway book. It was fun at a lot of points, especially the first half. And I recognize that other people are different from me, so they could take it in a different way. They might enjoy it a lot. So, yeah, I think three is probably a fair assessment for me. It wasn't my favorite book, but it, I still liked it. but it could have been better, it could have been stronger for me. It could have left a more lasting impression.
Whittney:mean, I'm an escapist reader. This was great escapist book. wouldn't say it's light'cause there's tons of trauma themes throughout. Right. But it's, it's accessible escapism, I guess is what I am trying to
Susan:I feel like, I did escape in the first half. I think Then it just didn't maintain that level of escapism for me.
Whittney:yeah.
Devon:I like to escape as much as the next person, but I need something deep and richly layered to escape into, and this just wasn't doing it for me
Whittney:Well, I have all of the books. I bought them all, ebook form after I was like 50% of the way through this one. just bought literally all of them as a package. It So I will let you know.
Devon:Well, we look forward to hearing it, Whittney. Absolutely. I feel like your interpretation of the books and your description of them will be a great thing for me to listen to in the future, and I look forward to hearing your, overall review of the
Susan:Yes, I agree with exactly what you just said, Devon, like Whittney, the way that you described them and the way that you interpreted them while I was listening, I was like, damn, that sounds pretty good. When I was reading them, I wasn't feeling or taking it in in the same way. So like I said, it is very interesting to hear different interpretations because the way that you describe it, it sounds really good. so I guess that answers the question that you will be continuing with the series. Devon, I agree with you that I don't think I'm gonna read further. However, I really am excited to hear about them through you, Whittney. Uh, I would love to hear what happens next. Also. I said this to Devon multiple times when we were texting. I would really like to watch the series, or if it was a movie or something. apparently right now it's still in development through Hulu or with Hulu. I don't know why there's a pause. They're not actually filming it yet, but supposedly we're going to get this on the screen at some point. I really would be interested in watching to see how the characters were portrayed. So for me, I'd like to continue maybe through other people or by watching, but I don't think I will be reading or listening. Even though the audio narrator I thought did a terrific job. She really did.
Whittney:Yeah, I'll just, I'll do all of the above and then I'll
Susan:Yes. And you know what else was cool? Devon had pointed out to me that a lot of fans have made fan art. If you Google A Court of Thorn and Roses fan art, there's some really neat illustrations out there. Like I was enjoying flipping through the pictures and that to me made it more fun. I enjoy looking at different artistic representation of the characters and just the way that people viewed the story and were very excited about it in their paintings and drawings. I thought that was pretty cool. So again, I think potentially the artistic representation of it on the screen or through art or something is interesting to me more than the actual writing.
Whittney:Yeah. Well, I also feel like there are a lot of people who are huge fans of this book series who have read the books multiple times. And so I think it probably inspires that in some people. Right? Or people who enjoy like a good reread. I've very rarely reread books, so, if this one inspires that, I will know. It's good. That will be a good marker for
Devon:There's a thirst for this subject matter for sure. congratulations to Sarah Maas for capitalizing on it because I think between the streaming services having just absolutely phenomenal high level content that they're producing. People want intrigue, they want fairies, they want escapism. They want magic. They want torture. They want love. And she's trying to give us all of this in the book, and I think it's true. They could really develop. This further in a series. And so I will be interested to see how that turns out. And I think that, it's the perfect time for it. The audience is there. Congratulations Maas on that accomplishment already, just having her work into production so soon after its publication.
Susan:Yeah. Come on Hulu. Let's get on that. I. Well, Whittney, I still thank you for picking this book though, because I would've never, like I said, this wasn't on my radar. I don't think it's something I would've picked up. I do appreciate having exposure to different things, so whether or not it was my favorite, I think it's still a learning experience. I've learned a lot just in discussing this with you and maybe learned about my lack of background in fantasy and the darker side of fantasy. So, you know, um, I appreciate you for, uh, bringing this into, into our podcast world, Whittney.
Whittney:Anytime I just have to keep you, uh, relevant with pop culture things, right? That if you're out, if you're out, to brunch, you and somebody brings it up, you'll be like, wait,
Susan:exactly. That's what I was gonna say,
Whittney:Devon, we wanna thank you for joining us today. We love hearing your perspectives on everything that we're reading and watching. If you enjoyed today's episode, check out our past book club discussions with Devon. We discussed Wish You Were Here by jodi Picoult, in our season two conversation with her. And one of our most popular episodes is Mad Honey by Jodi Picoult and Jennifer Finney Boylan, which we discussed de with Devon in season three. So you can check out those episodes in our archives.
Susan:You can also check out our discussion we did with Devon in last season about Netflix's Persuasion. And we are in the market for another potential movie to review with Devon. So let us know what, what should we watch and review next.
Devon:I wanna thank you Whittney and Susan for bringing me on for this discussion. I really look forward to getting into it with you, and I understand that I seem to hold my books up to such a high standard. I just wanna love it so much and I want it to succeed so much so that when it doesn't, the fall for me is a little bit harder. But I enjoy and respect the opinions from you, Whittney and Susan. So thank you so much for getting into it with me.
Whittney:Yeah, absolutely.
Susan:Well, we'd love to hear what you all thought of today's episode and how you would rate and review ACOTAR. So message us on social media, drop us a line through email and thank you so much for listening.
Whittney:Talk to you later.
Devon:Bye. Join us next time when we pick up where we left off and continue the conversation. Check us out on Instagram at Susan and Whitney or send us an email at susanandwhitney at gmail. com. That's S U S A N the word and W H I T T N E Y. Our awesome music is by Offshane and our scripting and editing is by us. Talk to you later. Yay, I think we did a good job.