The Conversation with Susan and Whittney

Butterflies, Bugs, and Breaking Down STEM Stigmas with TikTok's @effingbuglady

• Susan Field and Whittney Gould • Season 3 • Episode 3

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Butterflies, Bugs, and Breaking Down STEM Stigmas with TikTok's @effingbuglady
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Susan: [00:00:00] Whittney you're the kind of friend who is actively prioritizing self-care and was so understanding when I needed to reschedule a recording session. Thanks for reminding me that taking care of myself is so important. 

Whittney: Susan, you are the kind of friend who is always so flexible with me, so, of course, I'm going to be flexible with you too.

Susan: Aww, thanks Whittney. So I'm really looking forward to today's conversation. Can you tell our listeners what we have in store? 

Whittney: Yes, Susan, I can. Today's guest on [00:01:00] our podcast is my cousin, Alana Archangelo. Alana currently works as an insect curator at the Butterfly Place in Westford, Massachusetts. But until very recently, she was a teacher. She taught high school science, specifically biology, ecology, and anatomy and physiology for 20 years. Alana holds a Bachelor of Science in Biology from Florida Institute of Technology and a Master of Arts in Teaching from Fitchburg State University. In addition to teaching and her current work in public science education, she has conducted research on stingrays and sea turtles and has a passion for travel. She is on TikTok as @effingbuglady, where she posts educational videos about bugs and insects. She's also no stranger to the podcast world. While she was teaching, she hosted a podcast called A Teacher Who Travels. I'm really excited to talk to her because among her other [00:02:00] accomplishments, Alana is the closest example I have to a real-life Veronica Speedwell. And you all know how much I love Veronica Speedwell. 

Susan: Yes, I do. And, for those that don't know, Veronica Speedwell is the protagonist in your favorite historical fiction romance series by Deanna Raybourn. Veronica is a lepidopterist, someone who studies moths and butterflies. And if you want to hear more about that, check out our Season One, Episode Five, episode about reading historical romance.

Whittney: Alana, welcome to the podcast! 

Susan: So Alana, I heard you just finished book one in the series, A Curious Beginning. What did you think?

Alana: I was. I was pretty impressed actually. And guys, thank you very much for having me on the show. I'm pretty excited about this. at first I was, wondering if her, butterfly-ing was gonna be accurate. And then there was a section in the story where someone was trying to draw her over to look at a butterfly and she's in [00:03:00] England and they were referencing, Morphos and Ulysses butterflies.

And then I was like oh my God, this just lost all of its value to me because those are not butterflies that live in England. And but then she actually called him on it. And so I was, like, oh good. 

She's legit. And so I, that, that made me feel... like, I was, actually reading about a real lepidopterist, which made me feel, good.

the story was also really good. I don't generally read fiction, but Susan, I am like you. I don't remember taking the little test that Whittney was referencing, but I do like to read to learn, and so I almost always read nonfiction books. And when she was talking about the butterfly species and stuff, it was kind of cool because I rear a lot of the species that she was, referencing and in that first book, and it made me want to read the next book and see if she references other species of butterflies that I [00:04:00] work with on a regular basis. So I liked it. And I like Stoker. 

Whittney: Yes! We all love Stoker.

Alana: Probably maybe too much.

Susan: Who doesn't? 

Whittney: So, you heard it here first, everyone. Veronica Speedwell is a real lepidopterist. Her, her butterfly knowledge 

Alana: As a fictional character. 

Whittney: As a fictional character, she's legit. so Alana, there's another connection, Susan and I have between you and books we like. so just like Diana O'Toole from Jodi Picoult's novel, Wish You Were Here, which we discussed in Season Two, Episode Two, you have been to the Galapagos. So, tell us how that was. 

Alana: Yeah. I taught high school science for 20 years and I, one of the things that I always noticed when I was, in teaching was, these great trips, these foreign trips that they had for the English and the history and the language department, but they had no science ones, and so, I [00:05:00] decided I was gonna start creating my own science foreign trips for my students. And, of course one of the science, based places that you go and my bio kids had to learn about, the Galapagos Islands and Charles Darwin. And yeah, I arranged a tour in 2017 to take students to the Galapagos Islands because I wanted my kids to walk where Darwin walked. And, it was really emotional. we visited three islands. We went Santa Cruz, Isabella, and St. Christobal Islands. And it was, amazing to see, the, just the animals that are endemic to those islands where you have just like the marine iguanas that look like little Tyrannosaurus Rexes.

And you have the, the sea lions that act like dogs because everything is critically endangered on the island and you aren't allowed to touch [00:06:00] anything on the islands. but the sea lions just lay in front of you, and they act like dogs. They lay on the benches and they lay in the path and you have to kind of walk around them without touching them.

And, they're all over the beaches and they sound like cows, laying on the beaches and, it was really, really cool. I, we didn't spend enough time there. I wish we could have spent a lot more time. I wish we could have gone scuba diving or snorkeling, but, we didn't, there's a lot of riptides on the islands and so I wouldn't let my students go in the water.

They could. , they could, wade in the water, but I didn't let them go swimming or anything like that. but the people on the islands were very kind. my kids played a pickup soccer game with the little kiddos on the island. And, it. Brought tears to my eyes. It was just, really, really adorable that these big teenagers were running around with these, five and six-year-old kids who were kicking their butt in [00:07:00] soccer.

but it was really nice and, And then we also went to Ecuador, just like the mainland Ecuador as well. But we got to swim in Darwin's Bay. I had one student who was very, he didn't like school. We'll say that he wasn't a motivated student. And, when he signed up for my trip and the trips were expensive, I was like, yeah, he's never gonna, he's never gonna do it.

I know he is gonna drop out before he does it. And he went on that trip and he just wanted to see a sea turtle and we never, like in the water, in the bays and stuff, standing on the docks, we would see sharks and we would see, all these animals, a lot of sea lions, but we never saw a turtle.

Didn't see a turtle. And then when we were in Darwin's Bay, they got to do some swimming and Nate found a sea turtle and I think he was just gonna drown because his, he was smiling so, so wide. It was great. And I knew that that was something that he would always [00:08:00] remember, and I always remember, in fact I got my, sea turtle tattoo in honor of that student who happened to be named Nate. But it wasn't your Nate, Whitt.

Whittney: I love that story. Alana, what a wonderful trip to have with your students. actually as a teacher myself, I'm kind of amazed that you can take a trip like that with your students. I feel like it's, hard enough trying to wrangle them in just for a 45 minute class. I can't imagine being in a different country with them. 

Susan: So kudos to you on that, but it sounds like a fantastic experience. and I heard you reference Charles Darwin, and I've heard that you share a birthday with him.

Alana: And that is the truth. yeah, I was, born on Abraham Lincoln's birthday and Charles Darwin's birthday. So yeah, two very important gentlemen of history, and 

Susan: yes. No wonder you're interested in biology and ecology and, that's amazing. So as a teacher myself, I'm so curious about your journey as a teacher. Can you tell us more about how you first got interested in teaching and how did your career evolve?

Alana: Yeah, so, when I [00:09:00] was a little kid, I never dreamt about being a teacher or anything like that. That was not in my plans. I wanted to be Jacques Cousteau. so I wanted to work with sea animals and, or be a veterinarian. And I've also always had a passion for insects ever since I was three years old. And we lived in Maine and my dad brought home, Maine lobsters and let them run around on the floor and I called them a bug. and I have been like fascinated with bugs ever since. So I majored in biology and pre-med and prevet and, minored in marine biology in college. 

all of the insect jobs that I could find were working for pesticide companies and I didn't wanna work to kill bugs. I just wanted to be with bugs. And, throughout my studies in marine biology, I got to do work with stingrays and I [00:10:00] got to do work with manatees. and I just was trying to figure out what I was gonna do with my degree because a lot of my job opportunities were grant-based and, didn't pay as well as I really wanted them to.

And I was home for summer. And, a butterfly place opened up in my town, in my hometown in Massachusetts. So we moved to Massachusetts when I was three. And I walked into this living butterfly exhibit and I met the owner and I said I wanna work here. And he said no. And I said, I would like to volunteer here, then. And he said no. And I said, but I know a lot about bugs. And he said, come back next year. Cuz they had like just opened and they said, we can't afford to hire any employees. And so I came back the next year and I stayed there from 1991 till 2002, [00:11:00] raising insects for the Butterfly Place in Westford. And in 2002, my youngest, no, my oldest daughter was starting school and I had to make a decision about where I was gonna enroll her, if I was gonna enroll her in the town where The Butterfly Place was, or if I was gonna enroll her in, the town where where our house was. So my parents lived in Westford still. So I'm like, oh, I can enroll Ashley in Westford schools, or I can enroll her out, out in Ashburnham. And my, my brother-in-law actually said, why don't you take the teacher test and see if you can, get a job teaching and then you wouldn't have this kind of long commute.

And so I took it on a whim. I hadn't been in a classroom in years, and I, I said, if I pass the test, it's a sign. And so I did, I passed the test and I happened to get a job in the town that I lived in. And so I started teaching, [00:12:00] biology, ecology, anatomy and physiology and botany, right in my town. And I did that until 2022.

So I was there for 20 years and I knew that I was, it was time to segue, into something else. And my boss at The Butterfly Place, turned 90 years old, and said, Would you be interested in coming back here? And I was like, yeah. My youngest son had graduated high school. They didn't need me to be home, which is, for teaching in my own town, it was so convenient cuz our school vacations were the same.

And if they had a snow day, I had a snow day, and I had all three of my kids in my classes as well, which was fun. Well, I thought it was fun. They may not have thought it was that fun. Yeah, in, in June of 2022 I, retired from teaching and I went back full stop back to [00:13:00] The Butterfly Place where I've, I'm now surrounded by butterflies and giant walking sticks and poisonous frogs.

And I am just in my element.

Susan: Well, congratulations on such a long teaching career and congratulations on your retirement. That's an amazing story of how you've ended up now curating insects. 

Alana: I made a circle and when I was, teaching also, I, so in addition to that, Galapagos trip I, really got very interested. And here's another big, Veronica Speedwell thing as, I started going to Costa Rica in 2012 and I've been back to Costa Rica with students every other year since 2012, and then it had to end in 2018 because of course 2020 was covid and then everything fell apart. But, yeah, so I've taken students to Australia and New Zealand. I wanted them to go to the Great Barrier 

Reef. I'm taking my last group, actually to Australia and New Zealand in, this summer. And, yeah, in Costa Rica, a lot of Costa Rica and then the Galapagos [00:14:00] Islands. Yeah, I wanted to bring those science places to life for those kids, so... 

Susan: I'm sure you did. that sounds incredible. How That'W just so fascinating.

Alana: it's fun It's fun. And you make friends all over the world. 

Whittney: Okay, so Alana, would you like to share a few fun facts about butterflies, with us? I know you have a couple always in the bag, but let's hear 'em 

Susan: A couple butterflies in the bag or? 

Alana: Often, both of those things. let's see, some butterfly fun facts. So most butterflies as adult butterflies with wings. Live about two weeks. And the fall generation, Monarch butterfly can live up to nine months, and one of the cues for death is sex. So once a butterfly [00:15:00] mates they usually are dead within a couple of weeks. and the Monarch and the Monarchs that are born in late August and September and October don't mate until February. And so that is one of the secrets of longevity. Who knew? and then once they mate, the males die usually in Mexico. And then the females start their journey back up north and they usually die before they reach the United States border and their children who live as adults about two weeks make a, leapfogging, journey back up. 

So that's one fun fact. another fun fact is butterflies don't come out of cocoons. Moths come out of cocoons and butterflies come out of a chrysalis. Those are two separate things. and let's see, my last fun fact is butterflies taste with their feet. But they eat with their proboscis. And that [00:16:00] proboscis is that long, curly thing between their eyes, which up until oh gosh, I think 2018 or so, people thought they used as a straw.

So they thought that they like suctioned up nectar and things, but they don't, they actually soak up Nectar. They do. they use something called capillary action in order to get, nectar up to their face. And that's something that was recently discovered because no one thought to research it. 

Susan: Capillary action. I'm going to have to research that a 

Alana: Yeah. So it's sort of like, capillary action, a really easy way to think of it is a Bounty paper towel. So you can hold a Bounty paper towel over a liquid, just barely touch the liquid, and yet it rises against gravity. That's capillary action. 

Susan: That's a really good analogy. I a teacher cantell you were a teacher, because you're describing everything so well, and so, sort of user friendly. I can definitely see that connection. 

Alana: Well, thank thank. you [00:17:00] very much. 

Whittney: So, one thing that Alana taught me about butterflies that I thought was fascinating is, there's this like worldwide, butterfly raising and buying system. It's almost like a commerce system, right? For butterflies. 

Alana: Yes. And you gave me the book Fallen Stones, which kind of talks about that Yes. So there are butterfly houses all over the world, butterfly exhibit houses like I have, the one I work at wfourth, living butterfly exhibit in ibit in the United States and the first one in the Northeast. And when we first opened, we raised all of the butterflies. So I did a lot of farming, which is in my blood, so that was fine. and then, gosh, probably by the late nineties or so, these farmers, a, lot of them are actually expats, in Central and South America [00:18:00] were starting to raise their beautiful tropical butterflies and they were starting to look for, ways to get these butterflies into these butterfly houses, which were starting to pop up all over the world.

So the first one was in, England, and, And then I guess they maybe spread around in Europe a little bit. But the first butterfly house in the United States, opened up in '89 or '90 and when we opened up in '90, so I'm like, there was like three, they were all on the East Coast.

But anyway, so these foreign, butterfly farmers were contacting these butterfly houses and saying, Hey, do you wanna buy our chrysalises to fly in your, your exhibit? And so by the late nineties, we were importing, chrysalids from all over the world. Most of our chrysalids we import are from, Costa Rica and Ecuador. and then Whitney happened to give me a book about a butterfly growing farm. [00:19:00] And it was really cool because I actually know some of the people in the book . So I was texting my friend who has a butterfly exhibit and I'm like, oh my gosh, my cousin gave me this book and, they're talking about Garth. And it was just so funny. 

guess it is kind of a weird, it's a weird job. It's a weird passion.

To me, it's very natural. 

Susan: I think anybody would love to scroll through your videos.

I definitely wanna spend a little more time checking those out. But you have a very 

Alana: Yes, it's it's 

Susan: it's awesome. 

Alana: the @effingbuglady and it's not effing cuz it's a swear. I hired a life coach when I was deciding to segue from teaching into something else and she's made me make a list of qualities I wanted my life to be like. I made the big list of adjectives and she's what are your top three? And I said, I want my life to be exciting, fulfilling, and fun, which [00:20:00] was E, F, F. And I said, and I, and when you teach, one way I would help my students memorize lists and things are little pneumonic devices. to make, silly sentences or a fun word out of the, words that. you need to learn. And so mine was eff and that became f-ing bug lady. So exciting, fulfilling, and fun bug lady. That's me, 

Susan: Oh, that's brilliant. I love that. I love that. I love, I see it. Once again, I can tell that you are a great teacher because the pneumonic devices are everything.

Whittney: Also effing bug lady just sounds really cool. It rolls right off the tongue.

Alana: I think Veronica Speedwell probably would've gone for that too, though. Her name was also really cool cuz Veronica and Speedwell are actually the same plant and it is a host plant to the Baltimore checkerspot butterfly. 

Whittney: I did not know it was a butterfly host plant, but that makes so much sense to me. 



But I did know that Veronica and Speedwell basically 

Alana: mean the plant. Yep,[00:21:00] 

Whittney: so, she's basically like Veronica. Veronica or Speedwell. Speedwell.

Alana: Yep. And lunch.

Whittney: Yeah.

Alana: Yeah.

Whittney: Yeah. All right, so now we're gonna get slightly more serious 

Alana: so 

Whittney: the American Association of University Women cites a 2020 population survey conducted by the US Bureau of Labor Statistics. And in that survey it states women only make up 28% of the workforce in science, technology, engineering, and math or STEM and men vastly outnumber women majoring in most STEM fields.

In college, the gender gaps are particularly high in some of the fastest growing and highest paid jobs of the future, like computer science and engineering.

From my perspective, I'm acutely aware of this gap. I've worked in higher 

education. my whole career and nine years of my higher ed career was spent in the sciences, in agricultural [00:22:00] sciences and basic and physical sciences. 

And now my work with Warrior Scholar Project, I, am involved in the active recruitment of women serving in the military or recently separated from the military, and trying to encourage them to pursue STEM education. So Alana, as an active woman in STEM and one who has spent more than 30 years in the field, do you see this gap closing?

And are there steps you feel we should take to better close this gap?

Alana: That's such a great question. . I think the gap will get smaller. I don't know how long it is going to take to, to close that gap though. And, that has a lot to do with society and their expectations or their treatment of females and marginalized members of society where women or our girls are, really, [00:23:00] expected to be small, unfortunately, in so many different ways.

it's weird because in high school, most of my really interested science kids were girls, they were female, and I'm really proud of a lot of my former students, that were female that, liked science did go on and they're like amazing scientists, researchers, and engineers and things like that.

And I'm so proud to say that I've known them and I had a part in their education. But I think as a culture, it's an exception if a woman, if a girl, teenage girl gets, enthusiastic about science and, they get treated like an anomaly.

Oh, we have this girl who really likes engineering and she builds robots and she's a girl. Instead encouraging that to be the norm, they of make it of be an outlier [00:24:00] oh, and among the boys we have the girl who is, doing this stuff until we normalize that women are just as capable as men, in math and in science as a teacher, I never would've discouraged a girl from trying to go for it.

Whittney: Yeah. 

Alana: And I don't know where they get that message. I've never had a teacher, a colleague, say to a female, oh, you shouldn't take physics, because you're a girl.

I didn't teach physics, but most of the kids in the physics classes were girls. So I don't know where they're getting the, message, except outside of school in culture in society that's not a girl thing. But I think that is changing. I don't know what it's gonna take to really close that gap though.

Susan, do you teach high school? 

Susan: I do. I teach middle school E s L, so I don't work in the science field, [00:25:00] but I think just what you were saying about normalizing. Women in the science field, so I'm sure you did a good job at communicating, all the awesome science careers when you were a science teacher or just I think communicating the passion for science topics.

It seems like you probably did that so well as a teacher, and that's probably one of the things that is still important, 

push out the message of how amazing science and careers in science and technology can be, and hopefully normalize it. And I'm sure you're doing a great service by working at the Butterfly Place and educating people in that role. So I don't know like you said I think messaging is important in schools, but I think we just have to continue to stay positive and, I hope that, it will become normalized with time. But things do take time. It's a process. 

Whittney: a lot of our, Women veterans or active duty service members who are, exploring our education options, through Warrior Scholar Project, a lot of the recurring themes that come up for us, from these vets and service [00:26:00] members is a theme of imposter syndrome. STEM fields can seem very daunting.

They often don't feel that they're able to overcome the challenge. and So, it's always interesting to see, anybody regardless of gender. but it's always satisfying if the person is a woman or femme-identifying, to see the beginning of our courses and their confidence levels and then at the end of our courses, their confidence levels and their perceptions.

So I think that, sometimes it just takes, some sort of programming that can provide a boost of confidence because I think, the societal influence, the biggest piece of it is either removing the confidence or, instilling doubt that, you as a woman can handle a STEM field, 

So I feel like confidence is the big key piece that we have to figure out how to reinforce. 

Alana: Or even mindset. I don't know what our culture says to, [00:27:00] women who try and fail. Is it, oh, well you tried. and then they don't try again. Or is the, expectation, and that's what I always would try to tell my students and my own kids, failure is just a way to learn. And you just keep on trying.

You now you know how to do it a little bit different and you just tweak it and keep going. And you know that, that piece of resilience where I don't know, 

If. If it's not, it's just not being reinforced in, the female or femme identifying, folk or, like you just because you have to have that plasticity of your mind of just because it didn't work this time, that doesn't mean I can't do it, I can't do it yet, but I can get there Where, I don't know if that's as reinforced as it should be with a, fixed mindset.

Well, it's not a girly thing. it's funny cuz I'm doing a lot more. Work at the Butterfly Place because eventually I would like to take [00:28:00] ownership of it. And so I had to build some tanks, before we opened and I was using power tools and I, I kept saying, I hate having to do.

Boy, things I hate having to do boy things. And I'm like, wow, listen to you doing quote unquote boy things and wielding your safety goggles and your drills and things like that. And I'm like, no. It's actually kind of cool. I can, I figured out so much and I learned so much and I really dreaded doing it and put off, building these structures for a long time.

And I'm like, I can do this, I can do this, but I don't know if that's a, a mindset that's really reinforced. I mean, it isn't me. I've done a ton of work on myself and, I'm like, you know what? No one's gonna come to my rescue. If this is gonna get done, I'm gonna be the one that has to do it. 

Susan: Yeah, I'm hearing a, lot of growth mindset in what you're saying as, you know, more teacher jargon, I know they use, growth mindset in the professional workplaces as well and the power of yet, like, [00:29:00] maybe I can't do it now, but I'm going to be able to do it down the road. 

So I love what you were saying there, and also I think you're right about the mindset of girl things versus boy things. We should really abolish that completely. But it's interesting that that popped into your head, just probably unbidden, right? That's just what we're programmed to think.

But I really like that you were able to recognize that and turn it around and now it, that's a girl thing too. It's a human thing, 

Alana: A person thing, not a Yes it was. 

Susan: I can't believe I'm doing this person thing. I mean, You can still hate doing it. I, don't think I would enjoy wielding power tools 

maybe, but,

Alana: no, but yeah and I wonder if it was like ingrained in me. oh, girls don't learn how to build that stuff. Learn girls don't play with 

Susan: I think 

Alana: so. 

power tools. Until they have to. And, then there weregirls that were probably like,, oh man, I wanna play with power tools, but I'm not supposed to 

So yeah.

Susan: What Whittney was saying: confidence, like I think that I'm perfectly capable of using a drill. [00:30:00] In fact, I own one, but I'm not confident in it. I feel like I don't really know how to use it. Even when someone showed me, like I don't have enough experience to feel like I wanna pick one up and start doing repairs in my house, but if I had more of the confidence, I feel like I wouldn't hesitate to do that work myself.

So definitely mindset, confidence. 

Whittney: So they definitely also teach Carol Dweck's work in MBA programs because that's where I encountered. Carol Dweck and the Growth Mindset. she was a reading that we had to do. and it makes me think about how when I was going through my MBA program as a woman, I was like oh, man, accounting, finance, econ, i, those are gonna be the challenging courses, right? and, accounting was not my cup of tea. Didn't excite me, finance was complicated, right? But when I got to econ, I was so surprised how much I loved it and how, like I was getting good, test scores and I was getting a [00:31:00] hundred on my homeworks and it involved math and making graphs and things.

And I was like, who am I? This is not me. and one thing that Nate said to me whenever, I was marveling over this whenever I was in my MBA program was he I always felt like if you had better teaching, in math growing up, _like _if you had a teacher who explained it to you in a way that you could get excited about it, that there was always this potential and apparently whatever, however my econ professor was relaying the information was just really jiving with me and I was finding it fascinating.

And so sometimes, it really just, the right teacher. So, this is my ode to the good teachers of the world like the two of you who are on this call. it's one of those things that, again, shouldn't have taken me by surprise, that econ was interesting to me and I was good at it.

But I was shocked. I was so shocked because math is just generally not my.[00:32:00] 

Susan: maybe too. Whittney is now that you were older when you were in your MBA program, older. Opposed to like middle school or high school, you've had more life experience. so maybe econ related to you more with understanding what's going on in like the marketplace, our economy if inflation, like, you're living it and experiencing it.

So maybe, I don't know if just life experience could have helped to make it a lot more relevant, whereas it's so irrelevant to you when you're 15



Susan: Yeah. No, I do remember taking intro, like econ two or something in college, when I was a freshman as like a gen ed. And I couldn't tell you what I learned in that class. I couldn't tell you who had as a professor. that's how excited I was about it then, so you might be right. 



Susan: All I remember is supply and demand and inflation and talking about like the gas crisis in the seventies. That's all I remember from econ my senior year. But, this is a good 

Whittney: Yeah. 

Susan: All right. Well, Alana, thanks so much being on our show today. Where can listeners find you online?

Alana: So, I'm on [00:33:00] TikTok at, um, effing Bug Lady. I also run The Butterfly Place's social medias on Instagram and Facebook, which is, at, @theButterflyPlace, and yeah. I'm interested in, starting a insect podcast as well, so, maybe sometime I'll be on, on the air. I previously had a podcast when I was a teacher. when about traveling with students, it was called A Teacher Who Travels, which I think is probably still on Spotify And Apple Podcasts if you get bored and wanna Oh, is it still up? That's great. Yeah. So

Susan: That's amazing. Yeah. I would love to listen to that. I would love to listen to that. And I would love to listen to a bug podcast.

That sounds amazing. I bet you'd come up with a lot of good things on the fly

Alana: The pun. 

Susan: That was a pun. 

Alana: That was a good one. That was a good one, yeah. Yeah. 

So, that's most where I am I on TikTok and then on 

Facebook and [00:34:00] Instagram for the Butterfly Place. 

Whittney: Awesome. We will put some links in the show notes to all of those places. 

Alana: Awesome. And I really appreciate you having me on this has been so fun having you.

Whittney: Yay. We've enjoyed it.

Alana: Yay.

Susan: We loved having you. 

Whittney: All right. Well That's it for this episode, Still to come this season. We have a few fun mini episodes on deck and more great guests. 

Susan: Up next, in a full length episode, we'll be talking with my sister, Devon Hamilton, to review and discuss the new novel Mad Honey, by Jodi Pico and Jennifer Finney Boylan. Stay tuned. [00:35:00]