Susan and Whittney discuss the 2022 Netflix movie adaptation of Persuasion, based on the novel by Jane Austen, with guest Devon Hamilton.
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Susan and Whittney discuss the 2022 Netflix movie adaptation of Persuasion, based on the novel by Jane Austen, with guest Devon Hamilton.
Website: susanandwhittney.buzzsprout.com
Instagram: @susanandwhittney
Facebook: The Conversation with Susan and Whittney
Whitney, you're the kind of friend who I can share an appreciation of Jane Austen movie adaptations with, which is why we're reviewing the latest remake of Persuasion today.
Whittney:Yes, Susan, and I can still remember watching Jane Austen adaptations in your old apartment. I think the last one we watched 2008 Sense and Sensibility. And Susan, I love that you're the kind of friend who shares my love of an actor who really nails a Jane Austen leading man. I mean, come on, Colin Firth? Hugh Grant, James McAvoy, your favorite, Johnny Lee Miller, Matthew McFadden, and then this adaptation gives us Cosmo Jarvis and Henry Golding! Yay!
Susan:Ooh, I love hearing about James McAvoy. My heart just fluttered. Uh, yes. Love being reminded of all those leading men, Whitney. And on today's episode, we'll be reviewing Netflix's Persuasion, starring Dakota Johnson with special guest, not in the movie, but in today's show, my sister, Devin Hamilton. And listeners will remember Devin has joined us in season one for the inspiring your children to read episodes in season two for the wish you were here book club episode. And most recently this season for the mad honey book club episode. So welcome Devin.
Devon:Hi, thanks for having me back.
Whittney:Yay, Devie!
Susan:Yay Dev, glad to have you.
Whittney:For those who are not familiar, Persuasion was the last novel completed by Jane Austen, and it was published in 1817. Persuasion tells the story of a second chance at love between Old Flames, Anne Elliot, and Captain Frederick Wentworth. Eight years earlier, Anne was in love with Wentworth, but was persuaded by her family to give him up because he was without rank and fortune.
Susan:When the story begins, we learn that the Elliott's once a respected titled landowning family are now in a bad spot as the family patriarch and his father, Sir Walter Elliott has lavishly overspent and squandered all the family money. The family realizes that in order to live more affordably, they must relocate to a house and bath and rent the family estate Kellynch hall.
Whittney:There are a lot more nuanced plot points that we're glazing over here, but basically, when Wentworth returns from his time at sea with prize money and social acceptability because of his naval rank, he is now considered an eligible suitor. But there are roadblocks along the way, as there is another lady vying for his attention, and a lack of transparency and misunderstandings between he and Anne that temporarily keep them apart.
Susan:And must overcome the advances of her cousin, William Elliot, whose true character and motives we don't see in the film and rediscover the strength of her love for Wentworth, which has been there all along.
Whittney:The film is directed by Carrie Cracknell, with a screenplay by Ron Bass and Alice Victoria Winslow. It's loosely based on Austin's original story. So, what did everybody think of this modern adaptation
Devon:I found this adaptation generally enjoyable and pretty featherlight. in that it evaporated from my mind pretty quickly upon its conclusion. But it was diverting and entertaining during its runtime and overall I liked it.
Susan:Well, in preparation for our review, I've been reading and listening to various reviews and. All the reviews have been a mixed bag. Some have found this adaptation joyful. I even heard the term gentle, whereas other Austin purists are like outraged by how anachronistic it is. But in my opinion, I thought that was why I enjoyed it. and I have to be transparent that I haven't read the source material, but I am familiar with previous adaptations, though it's been a really long time. so I came at this portrayal with an unbiased perspective, And I thought it was really fresh and funny, clever, and very aesthetically pleasing. So, I'd love to hear your take also Whitney, but you know, I didn't care if it was a hundred percent accurate to the original text or character. I thought this was a fresh retelling for a more modern audience. And you know, even though some things were kind of unbelievable to me, like it's hard to believe that Dakota Johnson's and Elliot could still be single. Cause she's like so stunningly beautiful, but considering she's still mourning Wentworth. Maybe we can believe it. And She does say in the film, I'm waiting to fall in love. so I can appreciate that
Whittney:So, I'm going to address what you just said about Dakota Johnson because she is a gorgeously stunning woman, and I totally agree with you. But I will point out that there are references both in the book and in the movie to the fact that she was a pretty highly coveted match. Charles Musgrove had originally proposed to her, and the family is sad that She did Not accept, right? And so she had at least those two proposals that we know about. But again, she's waiting to fall in love. I will say that Persuasion is my favorite Austen book. So any adaptation that, is a Persuasion adaptation is gonna have pretty high stakes with me. But this one, I really enjoyed. I loved the fresh take on language. I think that this story has... Not been one that's felt super accessible in previous adaptations, And therefore it's a lesser known Austen novel, when I think it should be as well known as my second favorite Austen novel, Pride and Prejudice. Most people understand the plot of Pride and Prejudice and can even quote some lines from that, even if they're not Austen fanatics like we are. and I think this really opens. this book up to being more accessible to non Austin focused audiences. And another thing that I really liked about this adaptation is that it showed, I'm gonna say where Anne fits and where she doesn't, it showed her natural relationships with the characters, I think, better than some of the previous ones. And as an example she doesn't really fit in with her family, and I don't think it was glaringly obvious in previous adaptations that that's the case, but here, they couldn't be any more different. She has depth and substance, and her family does not. You see why Lady Russell telling her not to accept Wentworth's proposal would have made such an impression on her, right? Because Lady Russell is a stable and wise influence, especially when compared with her family. See why she's so close to Louisa, And why she would consider giving Wentworth up to Louisa, right? because she's very bonded to the Musgroves, even though they're her, essentially her in laws, right? Her sister's in laws. I thought that this really highlighted those points. But, I will have to say, I think that one of the most romantic scenes of any book ever is Wentworth's letter to Anne. And I feel like, potentially other adaptations may have handled that one a little bit better than this. This, because there was so much excitement, it didn't really stand out as much as maybe it had in previous adaptations.
Susan:I want to just say that I don't even remember the previous adaptations. I have a brief, you know, very distant memory. I can remember when it was out, the masterpiece theater ran a series of all the Austin novels. I want to say this might've been back like in 2008, I remember public television had a series and I watched it, but now I can't remember the letter writing scene. And so now I'm kind of curious. Either one of you have anything to say about why this version was more lackluster than something that was previously shown in a, in a, film or in the book.
Devon:I first became familiar with Persuasion when I was watching the BBC classics with you and Whitney. It, This one came out, the Persuasion through the BBC came out in 2007 and it starred the incredible Sally Hawkins. And this was the first time I'd ever seen Hawkins on screen and I remember being captivated by her and the whole production. She has this I don't know, this regalness about her, this sort of just quiet reserve that's very powerful and she was very different from any other heroine that I had seen before. She didn't have really any flash to her, she wasn't glamorous, but there was something that just, you were drawn to And her character, was very good and kind and hard working and had an intelligence and a quality to her. So in that way, she sort of made me think of a Jane Eyre type where she was good and she just believed in, in helping others and trying to do the right thing. And so she had that sort of weight to her character, and I enjoyed it so much that that movie inspired me to seek out the original novel and read it. And as Whitney said that Persuasion was her favorite. I remember when I read it at the time, I believed that Persuasion was my favorite Austen too. That I really, I really enjoyed the novel and I thought that it should be. More well known and more popular than it was, but it's been such a long time between my viewing and my reading that I came to this movie adaptation with an open mind. I believe that people return again and again to Austin adaptations, not for it's line by line faithfulness to the novel, but just that essence, that kernel of the story that Austin has, that everyone loves a good story. Everyone comes for a good story. So I was just. Approaching the movie in that way really had no moorings to the original anymore to really base it off of. So I, was just going to take it for what it was. Overall, I think that it was an enjoyable night spent in an Austin inspired world. And although some of creative choices were a little silly, overall, was really pleasant.
Susan:I love what you said about the Austin essence. I think that's my favorite line so far tonight. the Austin essence and I, I also want to live in an Austin inspired world. So there's that. But I wanted to say that I know there was a lot of naysayers, like if you Google this movie, the rotten tomatoes comes up at like, I could be wrong, but it's like 22%. it's really bad. And I was like, so perplexed. Cause I. Also enjoyed it. So you know, I was just thinking for any naysayers out there, I think it is important to remember that this novel is loosely based or excuse me, this movie is loosely based on the novel. It even says that in the opening credits, like it's based on, it's not, you know, this a hundred percent true portrayal. it's not supposed to be. exactly a hundred percent Adaptation. So when analyzing any film or story, I think it's important to consider who the intended audience is. And I believe the intended audience is for a younger, new to Austin crowd. So probably like the same millennials watching Bridgerton. It's not supposed to be this traditional masterpiece. Classic theater. So I think that this, you know, it is like a modern fresh take. and I think that's okay because that's what it's supposed to be. And I think this film tries to do with the source material, what Clueless did with Emma, but differently because instead of setting the film in modern times with the same basic plot, this story is still set in the 1800s, but with the modern dialogue and references. So it's a little different there, but. That is apparently what a lot of viewers did not like because it was so anachronistic and they felt it was inauthentic. So how did the two of you feel about the way that the movie tried to modernize a film set in its original time? I'm sure there's a term for that. I don't know what that term is, but was it effective for you?
Devon:A few things didn't work for me in that Anne Elliot sneaking away with her bottles of wine behind her back and her crying alone in her room and her, in her bathtub. I just sort of, I, I was taking it for what it was, took everything with a grain of salt, but thinking to myself that. In a modern rom com, a woman is seen soaking in her luxury bathtub in the evenings with her wine and her tears and her, uh, her romance book. but in Anne Elliot's time, it would take quite a lot of effort to to draw up a hot bath. So seeing her taking a hot bath in her dark room alone at night, I don't know, just sort of made me... Chuckle that it just didn't seem very practical for her to be doing that to be lounging in the bathtub crying like she was, I Enjoyed that it was trying to appeal to a different audience. I enjoyed it was trying to take a fresh take I did think some of the choices were very creative. So it just sort of made me laugh and I moved on from it
Whittney:I will just add on to that I wasn't as bothered by those things. the drinking of the wine, and the yelling out the window to Wentworth, and... I did like the part where she was, filling us in on the conversation she was about to have with Mary. I thought that was really entertaining. But, can we talk about the rabbit? The rabbit was weird. That rabbit would never have survived in that household. Definitely would've escaped, would've been eaten by something. Would've been cooked by someone for dinner. There's no way she could've had a pet rabbit, I just need to throw that out
Devon:It just, yeah, the rabbit, you just wonder, really, is she carrying this around? do people do this? that's what I was just thinking okay. They just sort of replaced where a character would normally have a cat, they replaced it with a rabbit. I think it just was supposed to be whimsical with something for her to make her laugh.
Susan:As pets. I know one of my, my older mates, best friends had a rabbit named bun and bun lived in the apartment with all these girls and bun would just be hopping around. And I remember bun was at parties. Everyone would be passing bun around. I'm just saying, it's maybe not as common as a cat, But, I don't think it's like out of the question that someone has a pet rabbit.
Whittney:Not today, it's
Susan:it was too weird.
Whittney:today.
Devon:random.
Susan:I mean, yeah, but this movie is not. Yeah, there are some, uh, different references and things like we already talked about, like the timeline, the times don't line up, I guess, but I don't know. That didn't bother me too much,
Whittney:So, okay let's say, like Devin pointed out, the bathtub, right? it would take how many servants, and how much time, or whatever. But they're living on the Musgrove estate, right? Charles and Mary are living there with their kids, so, maybe there are enough servants to go around. It is... Possible that somebody could have drawn her that bath, right? Or,
Susan:although it doesn't feel like in the bathtub in her clothes. I feel like she was just like in the bathtub, like just sitting
Devon:Oh, I don't know if she was in your clothes.
Susan:sure. I think she was just like in the bathtub, like, just sitting in
Devon:just in there, like, crying, and I'm thinking to myself, like, what time is it? Is it at night? And how many servants just walked upstairs carrying loads of, or jars of water to fill this bathtub for you?
Whittney:right.
Susan:I actually would love to talk about the bathtub sequence and also just kind of the whole opening sequence in general. So thought a perfect example of how the film modernized the character of Anne Elliot And her struggle to get over her breakup with Wentworth is in the first sequence. So the whole film starts with this, this picturesque sweeping landscape. One of the most beautiful scenes in the film in the scene, Anne and Wentworth are like fawning over each other in the meadow with the breeze blowing through the grasses and Ann's voiceover, I think gives one of the best lines to start the film. I almost got married once she says, and then it cuts to her saying, and now I'm single and thriving. Then it cuts to her like absolutely miserable. and she says, I spend time drinking fine wines. We see her slugging wine out of a bottle. She says, enjoying warm baths. We see her crying in the bathtub and she says, lying face down in my bed. And we see her like catatonically face planted on her bed crying. Next she says, and I love that sequence though, because I think we can. I'll relate to that dev. I was actually thinking about the movie that we love. Something's got to give when Diane Keaton breaks up with the Jack Nicholson character and she's just like, they show her going through the stages of grief and she's like sobbing in the shower. And I always love movies that really show you what it's actually like. So I could kind of appreciate, you know, going through a breakup in Austin times, but I don't think it's out of the question that someone would be grieving. in those ways, whether or not the bath is realistic. I don't know. But then I loved how she introduced her family saying next who needs romance when one has family. And then we get introduced to this snobbish, pretentious family, her father's in this long floral jacket, admiring self in the mirror while he's pampered by butlers. All the living room pictures are pictures of himself. And Ann says, my father never met a reflective surface he didn't like. And by the way, she turns to the camera to say this. So I thought that whole first sequence was so humorous and refreshing. I love that she was grieving in a modern, relatable way. And just the way the film used the irony and the tongue in cheek humor. I thought it was very effective
Whittney:Yeah, on that note, Susan one thing that was really unique about this film, or at least for an Austin adaptation, but is very common in reality shows, which are some of my favorite things to watch, is the breaking of the so called fourth wall, right? The wall behind the camera. When Anne Elliot is speaking or smiling or winking directly to the viewer, it's the breaking of this. fourth wall. It's as if we're having a private conversation or sharing inside jokes with her. And so the opening sequence you just described, Susan, is an example of this. And so I'm wondering what the both of you thought of the effectiveness of this because I've thoughts.
Devon:Yes I was in the reviews and the preparation for this discussion. I also saw a lot of people commenting about this and they thought it was trying to rip off Fleabag, which is a very funny, but crass romantic, I don't know if I could call it a romantic sure what I would call it. Just, a portrayal of a woman going through her life and trying to figure things out. But she's constantly winking at the camera. She's constantly talking to the camera and that style has become extremely popular in the past several years. And I think people really enjoy it because they feel like the audience feels like they're being let in on a secret and they're on the inside circle and everyone always wants to be on the inner circle. So in, for this film, I really enjoyed the way. that Dakota Johnson speaks directly into the camera and gives you the little side eye and gives you the knowing looks because you suddenly you automatically become connected to her. You're rooting for her. You feel like she's your friend. And so I think that's very effective. And Johnson, as we said, is so pretty. She's so easy to watch on screen that it lets you really forgive any weaknesses of the film because Her face is so perfect to look at and so you're just really enjoying that for a while But the breaking of the fourth wall I always enjoy it when it's employed well and I thought that there were many effective moments in the movie and I even think as the film went on Some of that fell away a little bit, and I almost wished it continued to stay as prominent As it did in the beginning of the movie, but I understand they were trying to get you to Be swept up. Once Wentworth comes back. onto the scene. Those devices were pulled back a bit, but I sort of wish there was more of those to continue to develop. Towards the end, some of the other characters that pop up on screen.
Susan:And I also really enjoyed this I thought it was very humorous. Actually, I know we're going to talk further a little bit later about the casting, but I thought Dakota Johnson was great at doing this technique. Previously when I had seen her. which is not very much, honestly, I think I watched one or two of the 50 shades movies And kind of. gave up on those. And I saw another movie that she did. I cannot even remember the name of it, if that tells you anything about it, but I wasn't ever super impressed with her. acting chops or anything like that. And in here, this movie, I was like, wow, I really am enjoying her. I think she actually is quite funny. And is delivering this so effectively. So I enjoyed the breaking of the fourth wall. And I also really enjoyed the scene where Anne was. Taking us the viewer through all the mementos she'd saved from her courtship with Wentworth, kind of like, how we would do that. And nowadays, like maybe you save items from an ex boyfriend in the shoe box under your bed. She showed us the playlist that he had made her. She called it a playlist, but really it was just like a bundle of sheet music. I thought that was quite funny. and then she showed us a lock of his hair, a lock of his horse's hair, which was It's kind of
Whittney:What was with the horse's hair? I still don't understand. She didn't know him very well.
Susan:yeah, she's like, I don't really know your horse, but maybe like back then you like, you actually would kind of know someone's horse. They're like, cause they get to and from on that horse. But I thought that was, that was really humorous. And I just liked that whole sequence a lot. I felt like watching that and a few of the other lines, like there was one point she was joking with her sister, Mary, she was like crying into a pillow and Mary walked in and she was like, Oh, lady Macbeth, like act four or scene two or whatever. And then she was. like, my sister will buy this. And her sister was like, Oh, okay. There was just so many effective scenes. And I was smiling throughout it. So I thought it was just really cool to see an 1800s woman going through experiences like the way we would. So I felt really like I could connect to her and I didn't try to find fault with. Any of the references being out of date or the style, like I personally just really enjoyed it for what it was. And side note, Whitney, do you remember that you created a breakup playlist for me? It was not sheet music. It was a CD
Whittney:It was a missed opportunity to send you just a stack of sheet music, looking back. But yes, I do remember
Susan:future. I mean, I would prefer not to go through another breakup, but it's bound to happen, but I would prefer a stack of sheet music. That'd be great. Yes.
Whittney:Yes, I do remember because I think that you said you kept it because I remember the breakup I sent it to you for and I think you referenced it or shared it with somebody else after, even after that was over.
Susan:Well, I remember that it was, it was a long playlist and you, said that you were taking like hours on it trying to figure out the songs and Nate was finally like, make up your mind. Just pick these songs, narrow it down.
Whittney:it's a very delicate situation when you are trying to soothe your friend's soul after something devastating like a breakup and he did not seem to understand that nuance.
Susan:Well, thank you Whitney. So, what did you think? You said that you had thoughts about the breaking of the fourth wall.
Whittney:So I thought it was particularly effective to help with characterization. and I will give you the example of Mary as where I thought it was perfect. Because there are elements of Mary's character that I think are hard to Have come out in a scene unless the person is being, is overacting or being a little Two on the nose, if you know what I'm saying. so whenever she's telling us Here are the things that Mary's gonna do when I walk in, right? When she and her rabbit, walk in. Which, don't get me started on the rabbit. again. But
Susan:Don't let you
Whittney:Rabbit that survived a carriage ride? No. Anyway.
Susan:go down the rabbit hole,
Whittney:Uh,
Devon:really walk in with the rabbit I've, even, I
Whittney:She
Devon:guess I the rabbit.
Whittney:it to Charles And Charles and Mary's house, if you again. She literally walks into the house with It I'm like, how did the rabbit come back? So anyway, she travels with the rabbit Devin. She travels with the
Devon:I know she, I know the came out of the carriage and first time I laughed at it. When he handed her the rabbit out of the carriage, but I didn't know. Yeah,
Susan:centric, it's a centric, appreciate these details. It's funny.
Devon:Yeah, it's funny.
Whittney:But, so when she's introducing us to Mary on screen, And she says this is what Mary does every time you come, it got to the point where we, we knew Mary so well after those conversations, after she demonstrated, how well she did know Mary? and Mary on cue was like, Oh, I'm on my deathbed and my in laws hate me. that's why they sent me flowers, et cetera. Then, later, when Mary's being ridiculous, it doesn't need to be explained anymore. whenever Anne hurts her foot, and, she's limping out of the forest, Charles carries Mary the whole way home. Do you remember that part? Didn't need that to be, like, why is Charles carrying Mary Did I miss something? Did something happen? You're like, no, that's just Mary's character, right?
Devon:She can't walk for long distances or be outside.
Susan:No, you're right, Whitney. That particular introduction of her sister was hilarious, how she knew to a T, like the three things that her sister was going to do or say. I
Whittney:That sets you up for later, so that you don't need as much information about the characters later because she's just giving it, that information to you up front in the fourth wall. So I thought the fourth wall was really effective there, because then it opened the actress that plays Mary up to be, a comedic genius, and we would get it.
Devon:Yeah, she's really strong.
Susan:No, she, she was she was a hidden gem in this movie. She was
Devon:she was a scene stealer.
Susan:For sure. Yeah. So Whitney, you talked earlier about how this is your favorite Austin book, I guess, Devin, you too. I'm not sure how recently either of you have read this, that you remember between the film and the text? I know I've read in several reviews that a lot of key details were left out most noticeably. more information about Anne's cousin, William Elliot actually being a villain, which they didn't really his character was just definitely not, three dimensional in this story. I feel like we didn't really know what was going on with him. So I don't know if you could enlighten us a little bit more on some details that were left out from the book that were kind of glaring.
Whittney:So, I feel like one of the ways the book doesn't translate to an entertaining movie is that it's a lot of, cerebral, longing. the page is full of just people longing for the past and rethinking decisions. And it's not super visual that way or super full of activity. One of the main differences I can think here is... During the famous letter scene, I'm pretty sure in the book they were just entirely in the Musgroves drawing room. it was just a big group of them in the drawing room. And in one corner went with writing letters. In another corner, Anne is writing, letters. The Musgroves are all there. Both, Charles parents and sisters and Mary and Charles and the kids, cause that was a thing they did. It was normal, we're all in a drawing room together, we just hang out and all do our own things in the same giant room together. Whereas, it wouldn't maybe come off as accessible in this movie. So, they changed the setting, they made it make sense for these conversations to be overheard while he was writing, and in the book, I feel like she's alone when she reads the letter, but she's alone In a private home and here we have her reading this, and then immediately running out into the street because she's in the inn, right? So it's it was a little bit of a different vibe. Because in the book, it's much more just regular life. She's just living her regular life, doing the normal things. She just is miserable inside. And in a book, that comes off well. In a movie, it's not super exciting. Just to have someone unhappy and longing the whole book. So I think for me that's the biggest difference. And you brought up William Elliot. I actually thought he was far more charming in this adaptation than he has been when I read the, book and in past adaptations that I've watched. I'm trying to think if I've read something prior to the 2007, or I mean watched something prior to the 2007 adaptation. But Henry Golding, come on. Just stole the show when he was on screen. And I don't remember him being that likable before he was almost like a charming devil. Whereas he ends up marrying, I can't even remember her name, Mrs.
Susan:Hmm. Elizabeth? No, it wasn't
Whittney:it's the, the widow. Who's trying to marry their dad.
Susan:No, but I love that scene at the end. That scene was hilarious when he was making out with her and then Anne walks past and he was like, wait, I can explain. Just I thought, again. just the comedic touches were so perfect, but interesting. I, now I'm very inspired to read the source material so I can have a fair comparison, but. For me, a strength in the film, was just the beautiful settings and the scenery. I always love a good Austin movie, which England just looks amazing. I don't know why I haven't been there yet. I just want to live there. But in the film, we see Kellynch Hall, which apparently is in Somerset Shire. I don't know, correct me if I'm wrong on that, but Bath to Lime, And then we're back again. I love the scene where Anne and Wentworth are on the beach. I can't remember exactly where they are, but this beautiful beach scene, they appear to be making amends though. That exchange leaves Anne feeling like more bereft and heartbroken than ever because as she says in the film now we're worse than friends. We're exes. And she stares into the placid water and then walks out in it to swim. And Devin texted me when she watched this scene and she was like, would Ann really be swimming in a dress right now?
Devon:Yeah, I think she actually says We're worse We're worse than exes.
Susan:Oh, you're right. So the other way around, sorry.
Devon:that they mend
Susan:You're right. You're right. You're
Devon:worse than when they were just exes and they sort of had that sort of tension between them. Now, she sort of has to ignore that and because they're friends, so it's even a worse situation.
Susan:I hate when I mess up the line that I'm trying to make a point with. Thank you. So, Yeah, Deb texted me, she's like, Yeah, would she really be swimming with her dress on? And I was like, well, she would if the producers told her to.
Devon:Yeah, I thought that was funny. I didn't really have a major issue with it. I was just being nitpicky. It was certainly a beautiful shot. I loved those location shots. The cinematography was gorgeous. It just, I guess from the book and from the original adaptation I saw, I just have this picture in my mind of Ann being very practical, very studious. And when Dakota Johnson and As Anne Elliot just walks into the ocean with her full dress on, it just left me scratching my head because I'm thinking to myself, why would she be fully clothed and swimming in this water? It looks freezing. And while the shots of her swimming. are very dramatic and lovely and Dakota Johnson looks fabulous. Can you imagine her walking home in this soaked dress that's completely waterlogged? It wouldn't be as romantic as her swimming in the dress right now. So the practicality or lack thereof just sort of made me chuckle. And I was thinking that the Ann Elliot I imagine wouldn't dare to walk home looking like a drowned rat, albeit a beautiful one. That was just It's just those little choices the directors made. I appreciate the creativity. I appreciate the sort of departure from the expected. But it. just...
Whittney:so I have an, I have a theory on why they did it.
Devon:Let's hear it. Let's hear it. They wanted to show her in a wet
Whittney:No. No. Because he says careful, there are riptides. Because he's a naval soon to be admiral. And he stands there and watches her. when she swims, cause he lets Louisa jump and doesn't try to catch her, right? But will not leave when Anne is swimming, because what if a riptide got her? He'd never be able to forgive himself. He can't, and we needed to visually see a scenario where he just can't, he can't leave. He has to stay there and keep an eye on her.
Susan:Oh, that's a really intelligent thought, Whitney. You know, I was thinking. Yeah, I was thinking too, like when the two of them were talking about Oh, now we're going to be friends. I could tell that, neither of them wanted that to be the scenario. I just wanted to scream through the TV and be like, what are you doing? Like you both still love each other You don't want to be friends. And
Devon:that's exactly what Anne says,
Susan:yeah. And then like they parted and she's like bereft and walks into the ocean and he's standing up on the cliff watching her. You could tell that both of them. He was longing for her and she was like grieving for him. and I think that was just a really dramatic, but also super beautiful moment. I, I really liked the aesthetics of That whether or not it's realistic with the wet dress, but I wanted to say also that. there were some awkward scenes, especially when Wentworth comes back into the picture. One thing that stood out to me was the scene where Wentworth and Anne finally see each other after eight years. and was pretending, now, Whitney you can tell me, was it her nieces And nephews, the, who were the little children that she was with? Is that her nieces and nephews?
Whittney:Yeah,
Susan:Okay. Those were her nephews. So she was pretending to be captain Wentworth. She was wearing a bread basket on her head, like a helmet, a jam mustache. That whole scene was very uncomfortable when he walked in behind her when she was doing that and then they were commenting on each other. And she says you look old. And your hair remains intact. And he said, your hair remains suitably appropriate. And it was very funny, But I feel like that whole scene was just like ridiculous with the jam mustache. But what were your thoughts on that?
Whittney:I mean they have to make it awkward. They have to kind of illustrate in a visual way this weird, awkward tension between them some way. So I thought that was just, you know, visually is the easiest way in a movie.
Devon:Again, I think the filmmakers were trying to make Anne as relatable and fluffy as a modern rom com leading lady would be, but I don't know of anyone who would willingly spread jam on their face for a laugh, because it's pretty sticky.
Susan:Yeah. But she still looked really pretty doing
Devon:Oh, of course! She looks pretty, she will look pretty doing anything. But yeah, the jam, I think they were definitely showing that she had a warmth about her. She didn't take herself too seriously. She was endearing to the children and the nephews adored her. All of those qualities came through. That particular scene, yes, was quite awkward and silly. I'm not sure if, again I don't know if I would picture someone waking up and spreading jam on their face to make their friends or their nephews laugh, but maybe Aunt Elliot did
Susan:One of the podcast reviews that I was listening to talked about how they thought that scene in particular reminded them of something Elizabeth Bennett would do. They thought that this portrayal of an Elliot was very similar to what an Elizabeth Bennett portrayal should be, I guess. And they were, the podcasters, I cannot remember their names, but they were saying that they felt they were gypped out of having their an Elliot because it was like they were watching Elizabeth. Bennett. So I wondered what, if either of you had a comment about that, did you find
Whittney:I mean, I think for me, it was showing Anne's warmth as a foil to Mary's cold distance with her own children. So I thought it was more a foil play than stepping into another Austin heroine's shoes.
Susan:and it just showed a whimsical side of her also
Devon:yes. I agree. I think that, as I said, I haven't read the, novel in so long, I can't remember, but The Ann Elliot, that Dakota Johnson played, doesn't seem like the Ann Elliot that I remember from the original persuasion material, but she is someone who's very likable and enjoyable to watch on screen. So I guess that's just what they were going for. Mm-hmm.
Susan:agreed. Well, speaking of talking about the character, what did you think about casting So, we had, of course, Dakota Johnson, as we've already talked about as an Elliot Cosmo Jarvis plays Frederick. Wentworth Henry Golding, of course, from crazy rich Asians playing William Elliot and Richard E. Grant as Sir Walter Elliot. And Grant, incidentally, I had to look him up. He was a Golden Globe and Academy Award nominee. And I thought he was, great. It was a very small role, but I was very impressed by him. So what did the two of you think of the casting in general?
Whittney:One person you didn't mention, who I thought was a scene stealer that we've referenced a little bit already, is Mia McKenna Bruce as Mary. I thought she acted. So beautifully in this role. Her timing, as we've already touched on was great. She was just wonderful. and she was hard to tear your eyes away from for different reasons than Dakota. And Henry Golding. I've never really been interested in the character of Mr. William Elliott until this movie. And I think that is entirely Henry Golding's doing. Because... I mean, he is very easy on the eyes, and he is extremely charming, and that came through very strongly for me in this. I think Cosmo as Wentworth was an interesting choice, but I understand it because he had to work for his wealth, right? He had to... Enlist in the Navy, and work his way up, and so he's not gonna be as polished in speech as some of the other folks he's gonna have to have learned it, and so I thought Cosmo did a nice job of showing that but I think if you don't know the story, he may have come off a little awkward throughout, and you wouldn't have understood why I say this because When Nate was watching this with me recently, so I could brush up on Persuasion this version. He was like, this guy? Why this guy? And I'm like, it, there's so many layers of nuance at play here that you're not understanding.
Susan:Right. Yeah. Commenting on that, I know Devin texted me and said, Wentworth talks like a lug, but I agree with you. I thought about the same things that you're just saying is that he definitely did seem like a character who had. Evolved over time, someone who maybe came from humble beginnings that then became someone more notable with rank. I feel like if he had started out more sophisticated or, you know, not talking like a lug, maybe we wouldn't believe his character evolution as much. And I did like him. I felt like he had a very pleasant quality though. Like he seemed very humble and it was an interesting choice, but I did enjoy him. And I did like Henry Golding, of course, but I didn't love him as much as I loved him in crazy rich Asians. I was saying to Devin, I don't know. I feel like it was just the way he was dressed. His collar was like up too high and I just felt like he seemed like just so stiff and, I still think he was a good choice. I just, I wasn't as wooed by him as you might expect. but I wanted to add a side note about and father, who I mentioned earlier was played by Richard E. Grant. I thought he was great and it makes me realize that he is just one of many in this long line of fantastic actors playing fathers in Jane Austen films, including Donald Sutherland in Pride and Prejudice, Bill Nighy in the 2020 remake of Emma. Maybe Donald Sutherland's character was a little bit different, but I think this Bill Nighy character who is Emma's father and this character. were very similar to me. They were just like very ironic and humorous and they were also scene stealers. So just interesting that he continued in that eccentric quirky father character.
Devon:Yes, definitely, Susan. The Austin patriarchs definitely unique and quirky in their own right, and they do tend to steal the scenes in these adaptations, and so Richard E. Grant wasn't a disappointment in that. regard, but I would say that this movie was held by the women. The lady, the female cast, I thought was absolutely terrific with the lead of Dakota Johnson with the whole film on her, shoulders. I think she was effortlessly able to carry that. Mia McKenna. Bruce as Mary was a scene stealer. She was just such a drip. She was so annoying. I think she pulled off her character just the way that the filmmakers hoped her to do. And I also, I loved Nia Toll as Louisa Musgrave. I thought that While Dakota Johnson had this glow about her when Louisa came on screen, I was thinking to myself, Wow, she's beautiful too, and she seems so lovely And likable that I really wouldn't be upset if she ended up getting Wentworth because She was just lovely, and I really liked her, and I was sad when... Her character was injured and we never saw her again. So I missed her when she abruptly exited the storyline and was only referred to later on in passing. And I also thought another standout was Anne's confidant, Lady Russell, played by Nikki Amooka Bird. I thought her scenes were terrific. You could feel a genuine friendship between Anne and Lady Russell. And I felt like Lady Russell was truly the only equivalent person of character to Anne Elliot, the equivalent in intelligence and wit and wisdom. And it was so good for Anne Elliot to look up to, I guess, that mother figure. And so I thought that Nikki Amooka Byrd was terrific in that role and that. Ultimately, the men sort of fall away from me in my eyes. Henry Golding and Cosmo Jarvis they were there, but really the people who were interesting to me were the female cast. they were the bright stars of this production.
Susan:I also want to add that the diversity in this film. I thought was something to be applauded. Now you can correct me, but I don't believe there was diversity in the other adaptations that I've seen. So I was really pleased to see that. in this version. And I love like with Bridgerton actually how they're just seamlessly weaving in diversity without it being any point of conversation, which is how it should be. Shouldn't be like, Oh, why why is there character of such and such a race? It does not matter. A person's a person. And I really loved that they did that so seamlessly in this film. And it was just so wonderful to All sorts of different cultures and races just mixing together in this film so perfectly. And I really enjoyed that. as Devin said, I felt the women were incredibly strong and they were absolutely lovely actresses. And I thought the casting was excellent.
Whittney:Yeah, I agree, Devon, something you said about Lady Russell in prior adaptations, I was not sure why Anne would have taken Lady Russell's advice so to heart why would she make the biggest decision of her life based on the advice of Lady Russell? Because in previous adaptations, we know she's a friend of Anne's late mother, Whereas in this one, I believed that Lady Russell was wise and warm and caring, and I could understand why she would have let her Make that choice for her, right? That she would have taken her advice so to heart that she would have made this Life altering decision as a result.
Devon:Yes I agree, I think that was their relationship. Even though they had very few scenes together, she was, she played a very small role, the time that they did have on screen, it seemed like an authentic. Authentic relationship.
Whittney:they had mother daughter chemistry.
Devon:Definitely.
Susan:Well, ladies, I'm curious. What are your thoughts on the chemistry between Ann and Wentworth or even Ann and William Elliott for that matter? Was there any chemistry? What were your thoughts on those particular interactions or relationships?
Whittney:Dev, I know you have very strong thoughts on this, so why don't you share yours first?
Devon:Well, when you have a character like Dakota Johnson, and she's just has this ethereal beauty about her, and she's wit and charm and whimsy, and they've just set her up to just be just this delightful person that we all wish we could be. Then they bring in Cosmo Jarvis, who played the role like a moping football player. He didn't come across to me as dashing, or rich, or a successful, reputable captain. Although, to be honest, I've never really met a ship captain, so I don't know if he would be like one or not. But one review I read likened his charms to Sylvester Stallone, and I would agree with this. Actually, I was thinking of something very similar when I was watching the movie. There was a thick necked earnestness to his performance. He just, he looked like a sad dog walking around, and... Although I wouldn't believe that there was a sharp intelligence or depth behind those sad eyes, I can understand that he might be appealing to some. As far as Henry Golding, his time was So brief and his initial appearance was sort of done So confusingly that wasn't really given a chance to make much of an impression. So none of the male characters really were. They just were side characters to the females who are much more interesting. So I would say maybe Anne actually had the most chemistry with her brother in law. He seemed rather pleasant and handsome and rich, so maybe he was a little more carved out.
Susan:Didn't He propose to her first?
Whittney:did.
Susan:So there you go.
Devon:You feel bad for him being saddled with a sister and you're just wondering he seems like a really nice guy and a nice dad and his children are adorable and maybe he'd be the most interesting lead if he was given that chance. Mm
Susan:You know, I was thinking about Cosmo Jarvis. I mean, I kind of agree with things that you're saying. Like he did seem like maybe he came from the cast of varsity blues or something, but I think what I liked him was Just, I feel like I was seeing him like through her eyes. She said all these wonderful things about him. He listens with his whole body. She gave all these praises and descriptions about him. And so I feel like I was really viewing him through like how she felt about him, maybe more than how I personally felt about him.
Devon:Mm
Whittney:I often wonder if that's the point, because it's interesting, whenever Nate and I were watching this, again, like I said, just to brush up before we recorded this episode, he was perplexed by the, choice too, but... Devin, you said you've never met a ship's captain. I work with and know several Navy veterans. And they're not super outgoing. Because, I don't know if you know anything about being on a ship or being in a submarine. Submarines are even worse. The most conflict averse people I've ever met have spent time on a submarine. Because, you can't argue with anybody on a submarine, Because you're underwater with them for four months at a time at least.
Devon:You can't get away.
Whittney:get away. So I wonder if part of what you're seeing on screen that isn't translating might be some of that angle to his character that Cosmo is putting into it? You have to just keep it in. And like he was saying, he would think, what would Anne do whenever he needed courage, right? Because he doesn't see himself as this dashing captain. That's
Devon:Mm hmm.
Whittney:perception of him and his successes. He thinks that Anne is still the star, and he is just captivated by her, right?
Devon:Yes, I'd be curious to see this actor in another role just to see if he has any other type of dimension to him or if this really was a conscious choice of the way he was acting it. You may be giving him more credit than is due to him, or maybe you're right. Maybe he is getting into the psychology of a shipmate, of a ship captain. I, I truly don't know. I've never seen this character before. Don't know if I visually see, him and Dakota Johnson as a hot pairing, but he was pleasant enough.
Susan:I think it worked. I think it worked. I did. I it was believable to, me, at least. I was rooting for them and was happy that they ended up together.
Whittney:yeah, fun fact, he is Half Armenian, so he also, while maybe not it wasn't overwhelmingly obvious, is bringing some diversity to this role as Well,
Devon:Yes. Yeah.
Susan:in one of the reviews I was listening to it might've been, I was listening to so many different reviews on my drive back to Philly yesterday. Surprisingly, if you just Google like persuasion reviews, all of these come up and there was actually one podcast I discovered, I think it was the Bridgerton brothers and they were joking about, first of all, they thought that. The name Frederick Wentworth was not very romantic. They were like, he's no Fitzwilliam Darcy. They're like Fred Wentworth. They were just joking that this didn't seem like a very like dashing leading man name. But I think again, that's the point, because he came from these humble beginnings. Maybe he's not going to have this very regal name, but then they were also joking about the actor and they're like, Cosmo, isn't that Cosmo Kramer first name from. From Seinfeld, they were giving him a hard time, but I really do feel like he was definitely a, the role. And I kind of appreciated that because it wasn't just like the traditional leading man that you would expect. And I think that fits with what the character is supposed to be.
Whittney:Yeah. also in my current region in New Hampshire, Wentworth is actually a very wealthy name because there is a resort by the ocean And a very fancy and expensive hotel and spa called Wentworth by the Sea.
Susan:Ooh, well
Whittney:but I mean, again, I live in a very big Navy area, so he would fit right in here.
Susan:Well, even worth any worth in Wentworth interesting.
Whittney:Yeah. Let's talk about our overall reviews of the film. And out of five stars, five being the highest I'm gonna quote Mr. Frederick Wentworth, or Captain slash future Admiral Wentworth. I am half agony, half hope, which is in his letter that he writes to Anne. Susan, Devin, will you be siding with hope or agony in your review?
Susan:So I'm going to side for the positive when thinking about the rating for this film I've been thinking about its purpose. And just as I would teach my students in class, the purpose of a text is either to persuade. So no pun intended with the choice of words here to inform or entertain. And I think the purpose of this particular film. Maybe different than some other adaptations of this was to entertain. And I feel that for me it did that it. felt light, refreshing, and fun. And when I watch things, I try not to overanalyze and just kind of enjoy it for what it. is. So even though in the back of my mind I was like, oh, that's an interesting choice, or that's different. I really didn't let that play into how I felt about the film overall. I just enjoyed it. And for me personally, I really liked it. I think I would give it maybe it's not quite a four, maybe like a three and a half, close to a four, a I really did like it. I would recommend it I think it's just like a nice breezy afternoon watch with some tea and some pound cake and I would definitely rewatch it.
Whittney:Yeah I know Devin is potentially our hardest critic, but I'm pretty aligned with you, Susie, on the stars. I was thinking in my head, three and a half, three seven five, and I just had to say that now that you literally said three seven five out loud. Again, for me, it. was entertaining. There are obviously things that could have been a little bit better, but It was an enjoyable fun romp through my favorite Austen book. Alright, Debbie.
Devon:I think overall I'd give this a 3 out of 5. Nothing really special, but it had some nice cinematography. I appreciated the attempts at creativity and freshness. And I too was trying to not judge it as an Austin adaptation, but just as a movie. and. as a movie, I would say, it needed more for me in terms of character and story development. Some things happened so quickly. Some things were a, little confusing. I wish that there was more. We could understand how and and. Mr. Wentworth met, have a little bit more understanding about the family dynamics, about the history. There was just, there were pieces of the story that I wanted more of and so maybe for me that will just, that's just a call to go novel. But as a viewer and a lover of movies being able to get that information from a movie is important too. Not just to say, okay I'll go back and read the book, but to be able to watch the movie as its own. and its own thing. I think it's important to have some more of those details just to give the audience something more to chew on. So overall, I'll say three out of five. Dakota Johnson was beautiful. Really enjoyed those female actresses. fun for what it was.
Susan:Yeah, I agree. That was great. Well, it was so much fun discussing this with you, Devin, as always. We love our literature and movie, you know, anything text discussion. So thank you so much for being on today.
Devon:Well, thank you for having me.